Q3 2024 Two Harbors Investment Corp Earnings Call

Thomson Reuters StreetEvents10-30

Participants Margaret Karr; Head of Investor Relations; Two Harbors Investment Corp William Greenberg; President, Chief Executive Officer, Director; Two Harbors Investment Corp William Dellal; Vice ...

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William Greenberg; President, Chief Executive Officer, Director; Two Harbors Investment Corp. William Dellal; Vice President, Interim Chief Financial Officer; Two Harbors Investment Corp. Nicholas Letica; Chief Investment Officer, Vice President; Two Harbors Investment Corp. Thank you, Maggie. Good morning everyone and welcome to our third-quarter earnings call. Today, I'll start by providing an overview of our performance and strategy, followed by a discussion on the markets and finish with an update on RoundPoint operations.William will cover our financial results in detail and Nick will discuss our investment portfolio and return outlook, as you may have noticed in our earnings presentation. And on our website, we have recently launched a new brand referring to ourselves simply as Two going forward in all of our investor relations and marketing communications, reflective of our evolution as a company into an MSR","collect":0,"end_time":0,"defaultTopTitle":"yahoo.com","property":["earning"],"viewcount":null,"language":"en","relate_stocks":{"TWO":"TWO HARBORS INVESTMENT CORP"},"translate_title":"2024年第三季度两港投资公司收益看涨期权","themeId":null,"isJumpTheme":false,"ttsUrl":null,"symbols_score_info":{"TWO":1},"content_text":"Participants\nMargaret Karr; Head of Investor Relations; Two Harbors Investment Corp\nWilliam Greenberg; President, Chief Executive Officer, Director; Two Harbors Investment Corp\nWilliam Dellal; Vice President, Interim Chief Financial Officer; Two Harbors Investment Corp\nNicholas Letica; Chief Investment Officer, Vice President; Two Harbors Investment Corp\nDoug Harter; Analyst; UBS\nBose George; Analyst; KBW\nJason Stewart; Analyst; Janney Montgomery Scott\nRick Shane; Analyst; J.P. Morgan\nTrevor Cranston; Analyst; JMP Securities\nEric Hagen; Analyst; BTIG\nHarsh Hemnani; Analyst; Green Street\nPresentation\nOperator\n Good morning. My name is Cynthia and I will be your conference facilitator. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to Two's third-quarter, 2024 financial results conference call. (Operator Instructions)I would now like to turn the call over to Margaret Karr.\nMargaret Karr\n Good morning, everyone and welcome to our call to discuss third-quarter 2024 financial results. With me on the call this morning are Bill Greenberg, our President and Chief Executive Officer; Nick Letica, our Chief Investment Officer, and William Dellal, our Interim Chief Financial Officer, the earnings press release and presentation associated with today's call have been filed with the SEC and are available on the SEC's website as well as the investor relations page of our website at twoinv.com.In our earnings release and presentation, we have provided reconciliations of GAAP to non-GAAP financial measures and we urge you to review this information in conjunction with today's call.As a reminder, our comments today will include forward-looking statements which are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause our results to differ materially from expectations. These are described on page 2 of the presentation and in our form 10-K and subsequent reports filed with the SEC. Acceptance may be required by law two does not update forward-looking statements and disclaims any obligation to do so. I will now turn the call over to Bill.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Thank you, Maggie. Good morning everyone and welcome to our third-quarter earnings call. Today, I'll start by providing an overview of our performance and strategy, followed by a discussion on the markets and finish with an update on RoundPoint operations.William will cover our financial results in detail and Nick will discuss our investment portfolio and return outlook, as you may have noticed in our earnings presentation. And on our website, we have recently launched a new brand referring to ourselves simply as Two going forward in all of our investor relations and marketing communications, reflective of our evolution as a company into an MSR-Focused REIT, while our core competencies have always been the understanding and managing of interest rate and prepayment risks. This new branding marks in a very visible way. Our commitment to MSR as a core part of our investment strategy.Although we intend to grow our origination and operational capabilities within our RoundPoint subsidiary. Over time, we are intently focused on providing high quality investment returns. And our combined strategy is designed to extract the most value that we can from our MSR asset for the benefit of our shareholders.I will tell you about some of those things. In a few moments.We start to slide 3. Our book value at September 30, was $14.93 per common share and which including the third-quarter common stock dividend of $0.45 per share represented a 1.3% quarterly economic return on book value.For the first nine months of 2024. We generated a 7.0% total economic return on book value which demonstrates that our strategy is designed to produce strong returns across market environments.We start slide 4, figure one shows market expectations over the past year for the fed funds rate. As you can see by looking at the green line at the end of the second-quarter, market expectations were for a total of 50 basis points and cuts in 2024.However, forecasts rapidly changed for the short end of the yield curve following the fed's 50 basis points cut in September. Such that by the end of the quarter, the market was pricing in almost 200 basis points of cuts over the next 15 months bottoming out at around 3% referenced by the blue line.Recent data including inflation, jobs and retail sales have all come in hotter than expected and ambiguous statements from several fed governors have resulted in the market tempering its enthusiasm, so that as of October 21, 2 cuts have been taken out of the market. And the terminal rate is projected to be around 3.4% which you can see in the purple line on this chart.Moving to figure two. Ultimately, the 10 year treasury yield finished the quarter 62 basis points lower at 3.78%.While the two year treasury yield fell by 111 basis points to 3.64% which you can see on the blue line, the curve is steeper by 50 basis points resulting in the first positively sloped yield curve between Two and 10 year treasury notes since 2022.However, the change in fed expectations took their toll on the long end of the curve and rates increased in the month of October, as of October 21, which is the purple line. In this chart, 10 year rates had given back approximately two-thirds of the third-quarter's rate declines rising 42 basis points to 4.20%. While the two year rate rose 39 basis points to 4.03% during the same period, steepen the curve by 3 basis points.Please turn to the slide 5, the acquisition of RoundPoint was almost exactly one year ago and we are on track to achieve the cost savings that we initially set out and improving the economics for our investments in the MSR asset.Additionally, the direct to consumer loan origination channel that we started from scratch in December is starting to bear fruit once at scale. We imagine this effort to provide significant hedge benefits to our MSR portfolio and to protect our asset from significantly faster than expected repayment speeds should interest rates drop precipitously.In our first full quarter of DTC originations, we closed and funded $22.4 million UPB of first mortgages and have approximately another $35 million of UPB in the pipeline, well not a large number. Keep in mind that only about 1% of our MSR portfolio is considered in the money, meaning that the customer has 50 basis points or more of rate incentive to refinance.We also kicked off a partnership with a large originator of second liens and we acted as a broker on $7.5 million UPB in a combination of both open ended and closed ended loans.We continue to observe a great deal of interest in this product with mortgage rates hovering in the low sixes. Although these numbers are small, these results show the proof of concept.It also must be noted that these numbers that I just quoted were achieved by a very small team of only 3 to 5 loan officers during the quarter. And by year end, we expect to have about 30 loan officers.As a reminder, we built our DTC originations from scratch with no legacy risk. We spent a de minimis amount of money getting it to this stage and it is now essentially breakeven.We are confident that we are building a strong platform and brand for our customers to turn to for their mortgage and home equity needs.We are thoughtfully augmenting our investment portfolio with additional revenue and hedging opportunities in order to further enhance the strategy that we expect will deliver attractive returns for our shareholders through a variety of market environments.With MSR at our core, we have built an investment portfolio with RMBS that has less exposure to changes in mortgage spreads than portfolios without MSR. While still preserving upside to decreasing volatility and spread tightening.By investing in Two, our shareholders are able to take part in the mortgage market and benefit from our team's deep expertise in investing in and managing MSR and Agency RMBS.With that, I'd like to hand the call over to William to discuss our financial results.\nWilliam Dellal\n Thank you Bill. Please turn to slide 6. Our book value was $14.93 per share at September 30, compared to $15.19 on June 30, including the $0.45 common stock dividend. This resulted in a 1.3% quarterly economic return. As bill has already mentioned.Please turn to slide 7. The company generated comprehensive income of $19.3 million or $0.18 per weighted average common share in the third-quarter.Net interest expense of $42 million was higher in the third quarter on higher average borrowing balances that were partially offset by higher RMBS interest income. Net servicing income was $172 million minus $4 million of third party sub servicing fees and other MSR related servicing costs that servicing income was unfavorable to the second-quarter by $4 million due to lower servicing fee collections offset by higher float income and lower third party servicing costs from servicing our MSR on the ramp point platform, investment securities gain and change in OCI was favorable to the third-quarter by about $337 million due to a rally in rates and spread tightening versus a selloff in rates and slight spread widening in the second-quarter.Servicing asset losses were $133 million in the quarter unfavorable to the second-quarter due to declining rates that drove a larger decrease in the servicing asset net swap and other derivative gains were lower in the third-quarter by $225 million due to hedging losses from the rally in rates.Please turn to slide 8, RMBS funding markets remain stable and liquid throughout the quarter with ample balance sheets available at quarter end. Our weighted average days to maturity for our agency RMBS repo was 78 days spreads for repurchase agreements widened with financing for RMBS between [sulfur plus] 24 basis points to 28 basis points.The widening was primarily due to the uncertainty of the fed's actions in September at quarter end, bank balance sheets were temporarily tight owing to a number of factors that included settlements of auction, treasury securities, as well as banks managing quarter and reporting metrics, post quarter and liquidity and balance sheet room quickly returned to easing financial conditions.Similar effects may occur at and as has been the case in past years, we will seek to minimize our exposure to end funding pressures.We finance our MSR activities across four lenders with $1.6 billion of outstanding borrowings under bilateral facilities.We ended the quarter with a total of $610 million in unused MSR assets and asset capacity and $91 million of unused capacity for servicing its assets. I will now turn the call over to Nick.\nNicholas Letica\n Thank you, William. Please turn to slide 9. Our portfolio at September 30, was $16.4 billion including $11.4 billion in settled positions and $4.9 billion in TBAS. Overall, our portfolio benefited from the net performance of mortgages over the quarter but performance across coupons was uneven.Lower coupons outperformed as investors added duration in the bond rally while production and higher coupons lagged as negative convexity kicked in and prepayment concerns emerged. We entered the quarter with an up in coupon bias but as interest rates declined, we shifted our TBA exposure lower mainly tracking the change in current coupon exposure coming from our MSR and also selling some higher coupon TBAS to mitigate prepayment risk.I'll review spread performance shortly but given the performance of spreads over the quarter, we steered the portfolio to have less spread exposure by quarter end, even as the economic debt to equity rose slightly to seven times.The increase in leverage naturally results from MSR requiring more current coupon hedging as rates rally the amount of spread duration is a function of how many and which TBAS or pools we are long after taking into account the effect of the MSR, we continue to manage our exposure to rates across the curve very closely as you can see in figure two and can be seen in more detail on appendix slide 17.Please turn to slide 10 to discuss the market for investing in agency RMBS, over the third-quarter against the backdrop of the fed. Continuing to have success in guiding the economy to a soft landing risk assets performed well.The S&P 500 was higher by about 5.5%. And with interest rates falling in the yield curve, steepen demand remained high for fixed income assets.Figure one, which we have shown over the past several quarters shows spreads versus volatility from 2019 through present. Our preferred implied volatility gauge to your options on 10 year rates decreased from 104 basis points to 94 basis points on an annualized basis. Close to its lowest level for 2024.The nominal spread on current coupon RMBS finished 20 basis points tighter at 107 basis points over the treasury curve. While option adjusted spreads finished 6 basis points tighter at 18 basis points.While nominal spreads remain wider than longer term averages by quarter end option adjusted spreads moved tighter than a long term non QE average of 29 basis points with OAS at these tight levels. Future spread tightening will likely need to be driven by an increased demand from depository institutions and or further declines in volatility.The nominal spread curve flattened a little but remained steep with peak spreads around the five and a coupon at quarter end. As you can see in figure two, on an OAS basis, the belly coupons of 4.5s and 5s were the richest part of the coupon stack with the higher and lower coupons somewhat cheaper.The move in rates focused a lot of demand on these coupons from convexity. Hedgers such as originators and servicers.Please turn to slide 11 to review our agency RMBS portfolio, figure one shows the performance of TBAS compared to the specified pools we own throughout this quarter. As I mentioned earlier, hedged mortgage performance varied across the coupon stack which is evident in this chart.Overall specified pools outperform TBAS with better performance from higher coupons. As prepayment risks increased, we shifted about $3.8 billion in TBA exposure from 5.5s to 6.5s into 4.5s and 5s predominantly to re hedge the MSR exposure as rates rallied.Overall, we continue to like the relative value of specified pools to TBAS particularly some of the season pools we own. We added about $300 million in loan balance 6.5 pools in the third-quarter.Figure two on the bottom right shows our specified pool prepayment speeds by coupon on aggregate speeds increase to 7.6% from 7.2% CPR in the quarter.Primary mortgage rates dropped about 75 basis points to just above 6% which triggered some mild media effect for high coupon originations from the past two years and led to material increases in prepayment speeds for 6.5 coupons and above.Overall prepayment rates for 30 year agency RMBS increased 8% quarter-over-quarter to 6.5% CPR in the October report which reflected September activity.Please turn to slide 12. As we discuss the market for investing in MSR, MSR performed well in the third-quarter with strong demand for bulk packages. The volume of MSR sales continued to normalize from the record levels of the past few years. This quarter brought approximately 40 billion UPB of supply, bringing the year-to-date total to $305 billion. About 70% of the pace of 2023 traded prices have held steady with the supply being easily absorbed by a deep pool of buyers including both banks and non-banks.The number of banks offering MSR financing has broadened and the increased competition has led to a compression and financing spread.Additionally, we saw the first securitization of MSR financing over the past two years as spreads for the securities returned to sub 300 basis points to so far.Let's look at figure one, as mortgage rates have dropped, prepayments have begun to display a bifurcated pattern. They are speeding up for newer higher coupon mortgages but they continue to be very slow for the locked in low coupon COVID era borrowers.This chart compares actual one month speeds for 30 or 6.5 versus our MSR population for the past 12 months and then shows projections the dotted lines for the next several months, as is evident while the 6.5 have picked up in speed, our MSR portfolio has not noticeably responded to the rally in mortgage rates.The quarterly prepayment speed was unchanged at 5.3% CPR, figure two shows the composition of our MSR and where mortgage rates were at quarter end, assuming a 6.4% mortgage rate on a UPB basis, only 1% of our MSR has a rate refinance incentive of 50 basis points or more.Even if 30 year mortgage rates were to drop to 5%. The number increases to only 7% suffice it to say that we have a substantial buffer to further declines in rates. Before triggering a large scale refi wave for our MSR.Please turn to slide 13, where we will discuss our MSR portfolio with mortgage rates declining the price. Multiple of our MSR decreased slightly to 5.6 times from 5.8 times and 60 plus day delinquencies remained low at under 1%.The portfolio was $203 billion UPB at September 30, reflecting the net effects of the settlement of the sale of $6.2 billion of higher coupon MSR that we announced last quarter offset by settled purchases of $3.3 billion UPB from bulk and flow channels.Post quarter end, we committed to purchase $2.1 billion UPB through another bulk acquisition.Finally please turn to slide 14, our return potential and outlook slide. The top half of this table is meant to show what returns we believe are available on the assets in our portfolio.We estimate that about 65% of our capital is allocated to servicing with a static return projection of 12% to 16%.The remaining capital is allocated to securities with a static return estimate of 12% to 14% with our portfolio allocation shown in the top half of the table. And after expenses, the static return estimate for our portfolio is between 9% to 12.7% before applying any capital structural leverage to the portfolio.After giving effect to our outstanding convertible notes and preferred stock. We believe that the potential static return on common equity falls in a range of 10.5% to 15.6% or a prospective quarterly static return per share of $0.39 to $0.58.As Bill discussed earlier since quarter end, we have witnessed a large reversal in rates and have been reminded once again how quickly market sentiment can shift and that bouts of high interest rate volatility are not over, mortgage spreads have widened, erasing much of the spread performance of the third quarter.In response, we have moved some of our TBA exposure higher and concurrently increased our spread exposure.As noted earlier, we also added $2.1 billion UPB of MSR through a bulk purchase while periods of high market volatility remain a challenge. We are confident in our strategy as evidenced by the attractiveness of our return potential.We continue to favor the long run return and stability of having a majority of our capital invested in low mortgage rate MSR. While still preserving some upside to tighter mortgage spreads and a decline in volatility, mortgage spread volatility has declined as the fed has moved to an accommodative stance and the market feels generally balanced with regard to supply and demand.Though demand is strong in the MSR market, we have nevertheless continued to find good opportunities to add at attractive levels. Leveraging our deep expertise coupled with the benefits of our own in house servicing and recapture operations.Thank you very much for joining us today and now we will be happy to take any questions you might have.\nQuestion and Answer Session\nOperator\n (Operator Instructions)Doug Harter, UBS.\nDoug Harter\n Thanks. I was hoping you could talk about the move lower in the static return for the securities portfolio. How much of that was a result of kind of the move lower in coupon that you talked about?\nNicholas Letica\n Hey, Doug, this is Nick. Thank you for the question. It was, you know, mostly really related to the fact that, you know, spreads just got, you know, tighter over the quarter. And also, you know, you have to remember that on our return estimate that fully reflects the composition of our portfolio. And as you can see the amount of servicing we have as a percentage of capital has gone up a little bit and it's, you know, leverage as a total of the portfolio has gone up. And on the other side, the security side leverage goes down a little bit so that impacts the return potential as well.\nDoug Harter\n Got it. And you know, and obviously this number moves around. But then, you know, I guess how would you think about, you know, how the one kind of how quarter to date, you know, spreads have impacted book value, and two, kind of how that translates to kind of incremental returns today.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Yeah, good morning, Doug, thanks for the question. I can take the book value parts as we said in our prepared remarks. And as Doug, as Nick mentioned a moment ago, you know, the market in October has been pretty volatile, that expectations have changed. Rates have risen curve a steep and all of that. So, through October 18, we think that our book value was down between 1.5% and 3%. Over̥ the week, last week, mortgages continued to widen a little bit more. So we're down a couple more on top of that.\nNicholas Letica\n And I can address the question. I mean, we've had as, everyone knows, we've had a major reversal since the lows in rates that was just prior to the fed meeting in September. And in fact, you know, since quarter end, we're up about, you know, I don't know, 50 basis points or so and mortgage spreads have really widened out.So, you know, all of the things, many of the things that happened throughout the third-quarter have now been reversed in a short period of time in the fourth-quarter. And you know, if you would look at our return potential now, it would, it would surely be shifting, you know, back to somewhat of a higher leverage.And we have, you know, since quarter end, you know, as I mentioned in my comments, we have slid our coupon, our TV exposure up, back up a little bit and our spread exposure up a little bit. So, you know, you would definitely see an uptick in the return potential on the security side compared to what you saw at quarter end.\nDoug Harter\n Great. Thank you, both.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Thank you, Doug.\nOperator\n Bose George, KBW.\nBose George\n Hey guys, good morning. Just a follow up to Doug's question in terms of the new target range. I was curious what drove the just a much wider range, this quarter.\nNicholas Letica\n On the return potential both?\nBose George\n Yes, exactly on the return potential. It's just quite a wide range and maybe just discuss factors that would take you to the high end versus the low end.\nNicholas Letica\n Yeah. Well, and you know, I know you've asked this question before and it's a good question, you know, what really drives those, the variance in those returns are prepay expectations as well as funding rates. And based on, you know, based on the assumptions that we use for the highs and lows and how they affect those numbers, that is what really drives it.So to the extent that we use a wider funding rate spread on the security side, you know, for repo that will affect what those ranges are. And as we mentioned, there has been a little bit more volatility on the funding rates in the repo site, you know, on the for pools, you know, that our funding for MSRS is, you know, is predetermined. We know that's all, you know, longer term kind of locked in sort of spreads, but it's really just variations in prepaids as well as funding rates.\nBose George\n Okay, great. Thanks. And then just based on your earlier comment, it sounds like the return profile distance quarter end with the move in rates should be somewhat closer to what it was last quarter. Is that kind of a good way to think about that?\nNicholas Letica\n Yeah, that's correct. I mean, I think it would even be wider than that because mortgage spreads, you know, where they sit right now they are, you know, they really have widened out to the highest levels of the year. You know, depending on there are lots of ways to look at spreads as everybody knows. But, you know, almost to a one they are, they are at the highest levels of the year. In fact, you know, where we are, where we sit today, they are mortgage spreads. Are you starting to look, you know, very attractive?\nBose George\n Okay, great. Thanks a lot.\nOperator\n Jason Stewart, Janney.\nJason Stewart\n Hey, good morning, thanks. Could you talk a little bit about your outlook, intermediate term, maybe near term and intermediate term for prepaids. How servicing capacity looks for the industry given where current mortgage rates at?\nNicholas Letica\n Sure, you know, prepaids we have seen thus far, you know, for this month, we have seen an uptick in in prepaid. Some of it has to do with day count. Some of it has to do with lags of where mortgage rates went in the third-quarter. Those lags are a little bit hard to gauge these days for various reasons and without getting too deep into that topic, but we do expect to pick up in this next report. And then I think you really get into the, then it will start reflecting the fact that, you know, rates that really have reversed. And we've done, you know, we did, we estimated that mortgage rates were down about 75 basis points in the third-quarter and we're up at least that much now in the fourth-quarter.So, and then we'll also be entering the winter months as we get here. So, you know, overall, I think we'll see prepaids really start to come back down across the board, you know, reflecting slower turnover rates for the lower coupons and then just much less, you know, sensitivity for the hires that we saw. The little bit of as people were saying, we had like a two week refi environment for the higher coupons which is now kind of turned around.I'll let Bill talk about the MSR side.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Yeah, in terms of MSR supply, you know, I think we've said and other people have commented that MSR supply has really reverted back to more historical norms that the amount of MSR which has changed hands in 2021 and 2022 were really in 2023 were record levels. And now the amount is really back to historical levels, which is in the $200 billion kind of range for a year.So we're continuing to see certain amounts of pools trade and we're participating in those markets. As Nick said, we participate in that market, we bought some at attractive levels.You know, we're finding opportunities to be situational, right? And you know, we sold a little bit in the previous quarter. We bought some here. So I'd say the market is returning to historical norms but remains healthy and well supported.\nJason Stewart\n Got it. Okay. Thank you. And then and just in terms of transaction activity on the MSR valuation, do you think that has an impact on multiples? Maybe if you could just parse out the delta and the move in the multiple maybe Q3 to where it's going at Q4 in terms of earnings on float income versus prepays and how those two factors are driving MSR transaction multiples. Thanks.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Sure. Well, you know, I mean, the transaction multiples of the prices of MSRs, you know, depends on all of those factors, you know, forward short term rates, right to the extent that the fed has cut rates will decrease float earnings, some which should drive multiples lower all else being equal.As Nick said, prepayments, long term repayments are probably back to where they were a quarter ago, right? So that's going to be sort of a wash, you know, where people are pricing recapture is of course, become a very hot topic of interest for MSR participants.And generally, you know, we have seen what I will call the MSR malt curve. That is the prices, the mults of MSR packages ranging from very low whack like we have of 3.5% up to higher whack packages 5.5 and 6 to be as flat as it's been in history, right? And that's really attributable to the value that people are putting on recapture that said putting all that together. I think, I think the movements in the short rates are small compared comparatively to where we are. The forward curve is steepened out.So that means forward projections of float income is higher than it was when the curve is flat. So I think these will translate to pretty small changes in MSR models.\nNicholas Letica\n Yeah, and I'll just add on to that. So your question about float income versus prepaids. We've talked in previous calls about the fact that a lot of our price sensitivity on our MSR is really related to float income given how far out of the money our MSR is given its low gross whack. And although there is always some prepay response as we've gone to some lengths to kind of demonstrate, it's still pretty small. Right.So our, most of the price sensitivity that our MSR displays is about float rather than prepaids. I don't think that's changed dramatically in this move.You know, of course, if you had, you know, higher gross whack MSR alone, then it's, you know, prepaids and current coupon exposure would have a much bigger impact on the pricing. But most of it is really just interest rate movement related.\nJason Stewart\n Right. So net neutral on market multiples and biased higher on two MSR multiple. And then just a quick question is, is the, is the MSR in your estimate of book value quarter to date? Is there any change to the MSR valuation embedded in that?\nWilliam Greenberg\n Yeah. Well, when we said we were down between 1.5% and 3% as of October 18, that incorporates the entire portfolio.It's a hedge portfolio that both sides, right? All positive duration and negative duration, assets are moving around in that. And that's the estimate that we think.\nJason Stewart\n Great. Thank you.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Thank you.\nOperator\n Rick Shane, J.P. Morgan\nRick Shane\n Thanks everybody for taking my question. I'd like to follow up on Jason's questions related to the MSR. You know, when we look at the sales and in bulk purchases, they almost net out when we look at the gross coupon rate, it ticked down slightly.Can you help us understand a little bit about the characteristics of the purchases you're making? I'm assuming that some of this is, or a lot of this is seasoned, MSR, you're not buying a new production, but help us help if you could help us understand what's going on here and what the strategy is.\nNicholas Letica\n Hey, Rick, this is Nick. Thank you for that question. As you know, MSR is a nuanced asset. There's all kinds of things that go into its valuation and you know, that old, that adage in the bond market, there's no bad bonds, just bad prices. You know, we really look across the whack range of MSRS and you know, each package is unique and it's hard to generalize.So, you know, we have, you know, as you know, we've sold some high gross wax stuff as we've, you know, we've been engaged in buying some from time to time, you know, we bought sort of intermediate whack kind of things that are you know, in the 4% to 5% gross whack range through time. It really varies and it depends on where the value is.But, you know, we have participated, we have bought some high gross wax stuff too. It doesn't, just because it's high gross whack doesn't mean that it doesn't have good value. And, you know, as I said, it's a nuanced asset where, you know, the deep variables really do matter. And you know, we also have some flow and the flow MSR is, you know, by definition, pretty much current coupon and we have that coming into our portfolio too. So it's a mix of things.\nRick Shane\n Got it. Okay. And again, you know, when, I think a lot I it's interesting, I I'm looking at your slides, looking at the new logo, looking at the new branding and realizing that this is indicative of the strategic shift that you guys are pointing to. And when we think about how you're approaching the MSR market at this point, we've historically thought of it as a pure hedge against the agency book.But I think what you're, what's really happening here is that you're trying to play both sides of the coin that you really want to be in the recapture business. You're competing there as much as you are sort of creating the traditional, I'll call it Two Harbors book versus the Two book.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Yeah, I think I think that's mostly right. You know what we saw in the last couple of years as rates rose was, was that the traditional, you know what I like to call hedge capacity of the MSR asset declined and the portfolio, the RMBS part of the portfolio and the MSR portfolio bifurcated because they didn't really hedge one another necessarily. But we, but we like the attributes and return opportunities of both right in our portfolio, our MSR portfolio today at 3.5 gross whack, you know, as, as we showed on some of the earlier slides is prepaying slowly, it's cash flowing.Well, it's very far out of the money and so forth. And so the RMBS part and the MSR part don't hedge one another. Exactly, but they complement one another, right? When we think about, you know, the ways to, to add or augment, you know, potential returns to our MSR assets, right? And to improve returns for the company and for shareholders, you know, there's things we can do on the MSR side that we can't do on the security side.And one of the things that we can do is we can buy a servicer, right? And because we did that, we, you know, we, as I said in my prepared remarks were on track to achieve the cost savings that we said just through economies of scale and controlling our own destiny and being able to be more efficient than we were rather than owning subservicing.The recapture effort is a part of that. Also, you know, I think I've talked publicly about being able to hedge faster than expected prepayment speeds, right, when rates fall or rise. We, you know, we have expectations of what we think prepayments will do and therefore we have expectations for what MSR prices will do and we can hedge those with financial instruments. But what we can't do is we can't hedge speeds that are faster than we expect the origination channel, the direct to consumer channel will help us do that, right? And so that's really the genesis of wanting to, to embark on that.And then once we're here, right, we can do some of these other things like I mentioned in my program marks in terms of originating or brokering, second leans to other people and other such things. So, you know, it is a recognition that we're creating this ecosystem around the MSR asset, but it's designed to support and augment the investment portfolio.\nRick Shane\n Got it. Hey, Nick, thank you very much and Bill that's very helpful. It's, it's good to get strategic insight and we appreciate it. Thank you.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Yeah, thanks, Rick.\nOperator\n Trevor Cranston, JMP.\nTrevor Cranston\n Hey, thanks. Can you talk a little bit about your thoughts on swap spreads relative to treasuries? You know, if there's a limit to how low you think those can go and how all that plays into your choice of hedging instruments for the portfolio. Thanks.\nNicholas Letica\n Hey, Trevor. Thanks for that question. It's a great question and I will hesitate to state a limit on, where I think swap threats can go.We know we'll say that, you know, we use a combination of swaps and treasury futures to hedge our book overall.And it does appear to us as though a lot of the supply concerns about the market are priced into swap spreads right now. We are, you know, at extremely tight levels on swaps relative to treasuries. But, you know, as we've seen this quarter, there continues to be, you know, that GAAP continues to grow and, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of it has to do with market directionality, a lot of it has to do with the, you know, expectation for budget responsibility of, you know, the next and future administrations.But overall, you know, we do think that swap spreads here present a good hedging opportunity and, you know, have you shifted a little bit or, you know, remain reasonably, you know, heavily hedged with swaps just thinking that they know that they do offer, you know, better carry from a hedge perspective and that there are reasons to also believe that swap spreads could widen and one of them really would be, you know, if the FED were to really stop the QT side and that, you know, there's debates about that in the market.There are, you know, arguments on both sides, but there's a reasonable chance that that happens as well, which would, you know, change the dynamic of that market greatly. But, you know, it's a very good question and, you know, it's one in which, you know, a lot of it will just depend on what happens from a, you know, from a budgetary perspective for the US and what supply looks like. But as I said, on balance, we think that there is a lot of the bad news, you know about the budget is and treasury supply is priced into spreads right now.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Yeah. Okay. That's helpful. Thank you.\nOperator\n Eric Hagen, BTIG.\nEric Hagen\n Hey, thanks, good morning. When you say that you raised your spread exposure into October, is that a function of taking your financial leverage higher or is your spread exposure also a function of how much TBA you have relative to pools and such.\nNicholas Letica\n It's a function of a few things. It's not, it's not leverage. And that's one thing that, you know, we pointed out on the prepared remarks. Leverage is, but one measure of risk that we look at and it has to do with, you know, some of our spread exposure has to do with how we allow our spread exposure to change with regard to the MSR. When rates go down, you know, at the MSR, it becomes, you know, it requires as I mentioned, more mortgages to hedge when rates go back up less.So if you know, you hold essentially the same amount of mortgages, you're going to have more mortgage spread exposure as rates go up and less as rates go down. So some of it just has to do with letting that exposure grow as spreads have widened so that it's really more of a function than that than a leverage than leverage. We have really not taken our leverage up.\nEric Hagen\n Okay. Got you. I think there is a follow up question here on leverage though. I mean, what is the right way to benchmark your leverage relative to the spread environment? Like does your leverage account for the fact that the fed is expected to cut rates versus, you know, last year when spreads were even wider than they are right now? But the benefit from the borrowing cost wasn't, you know, really reflected in the spread environment. How do you benchmark your leverage against that?\nNicholas Letica\n I'm not sure I really understand your question. You know, we, you know, we look at our portfolio composition and look, you know, look at the spreads in the market and what kind of returns we think we can generate. And as we said on prior calls you know, we don't, you know, we've kind of given a range of what our overall economic leverage is. I think that still holds, but it has to do really with where, where we see spreads are now. And, you know, we're, you know, you're essentially, I think you're asking us to, I think you're asking like, do we -- are we predicting mortgage performance based on the way the fed is going to act? But I'm not quite sure what you're asking to be perfectly [H1].\nEric Hagen\n Okay. And you guys have a convertible deck coming up on a current liability in a couple months. Do you have a sense for how you're thinking about potentially refinancing? That is your capital structure.\nWilliam Greenberg\n The convertible debt is coming due in early '26 and so that's on our radar and then we'll be addressing it before that one other point. If I could just make about your question about leverage and so forth. And Nick's answer, I might just elaborate a little bit. That leverage is, one measure of our risk that we look at. Of course, but you know, we have other measures in terms of that, we put it in the deck also about our mortgage spread exposure and the amount of liquidity we have and so forth and you know, because the MSR as out of the money as it is, it does still contribute to offsetting some mortgage spread exposure, you know, that we think that's important to include in our overall risks as well.And so, you know, we don't just look at leverage as one measure, although we obviously pay attention to it and respect it, but it's a whole suite of metrics that we look at when we're managing the portfolio exposures.\nEric Hagen\n Got you. Alright. That's really helpful. Thank you guys.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Thank you.\nOperator\n Harsh Hemnani, Green Street.\nHarsh Hemnani\n Hey, thanks for taking my question. Hey, so now that RoundPoint is scaled up and operating, I guess, could you remind us the recapture rate on a long term basis that you're projecting on the MSR there?\nWilliam Greenberg\n Yeah, you know, I mean, as I said, we just finished our first quarter of DTC operations and as I mentioned, we only had, you know, a number of loan officers that can be counted on one hand. And so, you know, we're not up to scale yet. As I said, I think what we've done here is a proof of concept and we're bringing the thing to scale. And so, you know, I think it's too soon to talk about what the, what the recapture rates are in our portfolio.But you know, we do expect that we'll be able to achieve, you know, an industry level recapture rate on the agency portfolio once we're fully at scale, you know, I mean, we are in this, in this weird environment where, you know, 1% or less than 1% especially with the recent movement, rates of our portfolio are at the money. And so, you know, these are very small numbers of our portfolio that are actually in the money.So it's not a great moment to talk about what the recapture rate is, but we'll have more to say about that in future quarters.\nHarsh Hemnani\n Okay. That's fair. And then, you know, you touched on this a little bit in the prepared remarks and on a few prior questions, but perhaps in the near term call it next couple of quarters. How are you looking at the relative value across the two strategies? Right? Where you're seeing the opportunity to invest the better in, in the securities portfolio methods?\nNicholas Letica\n Hey, Harsh. Thank you for that question. It is mortgage spreads. Having done what they have done thus far this quarter, you know, the mortgage side at the moment looks quite attractive, you know, how long that lasts. It's hard to say, you know, there's, I believe there are a lot of market participants that are, you know, holding on for the election to be over because as we know, there can be a significant amount of volatility and we have a lot of, you know, a lot of events coming up in the next few weeks, we have nonfarm payroll, we have the election and then we have the fed right after that, you know, there's a lot of reasons to do nothing. And I think that there are a lot of investors right now that are happy to just sit and watch right now. And I think that I believe that explains a lot of the reasons why we've seen mortgage spreads move out as they have.So, you know, at the moment, if you ask me right today, if I had money to invest, I would put it into the mortgage side because I think mortgage spreads are very attractive.You know, my sense is that, you know, that won't last for a longer period of time unless we really have a different environment for one reason or another. Unless we're again moving back to higher rates or some questioning about whether the fed is really cutting or not.You know, I think the base case should be that mortgage spreads probably, you know, do better once we get through these, these market events that were, that are coming up, but, you know, longer term, you know, we, we still, you know, we love our MSR asset, you know, as we say, it's a great risk reward asset. You know, it's fairly easy to hedge and provides a lot of great cash flows and prepays are very stable. So, you know, from a longer term perspective, we really do like the MSR.\nHarsh Hemnani\n Got it. Great. Thank you.\nWilliam Greenberg\n Thank you.\nOperator\n There are no further questions at this time, Mr. Greenberg, I will turn the conference back to you for any additional or closing remarks.\nWilliam Greenberg\n I'd like to thank everyone for joining us today. Thank you, as always for your interest in Two Harbors.\nOperator\n This concludes today's call. 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