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2021-06-26

Transcript of Nadella's exclusive interview: Windows ecosystem will be more open

6月26日消息，微软刚刚发布了其新版旗舰操作系统Windows 11，它采用了全新的设计，增加了许多新功能，并能够运行安卓应用程序。与此同时，Windows应用程序的分发方式也发生了重大变化。微软正在

Transcript of Nadella's exclusive interview: Windows ecosystem will be more open

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At the same time, there have been major changes in the way Windows applications are distributed. Microsoft is opening up the Windows App Store, allowing developers to put more kinds of applications on the store. Developers can also use their own payment system, so they don't have to pay commissions to Microsoft.Recently, related to<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/AAPL\">Apple</a>The high commissions charged by the app store and the company's tight control of developers on its platform have caused a lot of controversy, as well as lawsuits, congressional legislation and even the attention of European regulators. While Microsoft and its CEO Satya Nadella have repositioned Windows, saying that the Windows ecosystem will be more open, and the goal of Windows is to allow other companies to build their own huge businesses and platforms without Microsoft obstructing them.For Apple and Microsoft, this sounds like a complete reversal in the attitude of the two companies. Twenty years ago, when Mac was a relatively open platform, Microsoft was facing tremendous pressure from regulators. After Microsoft released Windows 11, Nadella accepted an exclusive interview with American media, talking about a completely different strategy from Apple's, how he views Microsoft's responsibilities when Windows is used as a platform, and how he thinks various antitrust legislation in Congress will affect Microsoft's future plans.The following is the full text of Nadella's interview:Q: Microsoft just released Windows 11, and there's definitely a lot to talk about, but I want to start this conversation with some personal questions. You only recently became chairman of Microsoft, and you also serve as CEO. What does it really mean to be a chairman?Nadella: As you know, the reality is that at least in terms of corporate governance in the United States, it is the independent directors who really have absolute power over all management members. They can decide issues including my appointment and dismissal, salary and performance. Basically, they can decide whether to hire or fire me. Independent directors are the people who really have the power of corporate governance. If anything after becoming chairman, my reading of these changes is, fundamentally, how do we bring the management team and the board together around Microsoft's goals and strategy? How do we, as a team, hold ourselves accountable?So, as someone described it to me, maybe I should go to more meetings, or more board meetings. But I think it's just a natural result of what I've been doing consistently for the last seven years. Frankly, there hasn't really been changes in terms of the rigor of corporate governance and who really has the power to hire and fire CEOs. This is the power of independent directors on Microsoft's board of directors.Q: Which leads directly to my next question, which is who is your boss? To whom are you most responsible?NADELLA: In a sense, the board and independent directors can decide everything. If your boss is defined as someone who can ultimately hold you accountable, then for Microsoft, the boss is an independent director on Microsoft's board of directors.Q: I have asked many executives this question: What is your decision-making framework? Microsoft is a huge business, with a lot of different businesses, and the scale of each business is huge, how do you guys make decisions?NADELLA: I try to simplify the situation. I have this framework myself, and I have always followed this framework since I became CEO. The decision-making process first begins with following Microsoft's mission and ends with following corporate culture, and in the middle is our worldview, our strategic thinking. I think the things that stay timeless are the sense of mission, purpose and culture, while the things that change are the worldview and strategy.Your take on the decision-making framework: Anything we do has to be aligned with the first question, which is: Does this thing make sense considering us as a company? More importantly, if we do this, will it add value that is unique in the world? Is this something that will both set us apart from the competition and be useful to people? For me, this is the most helpful way of whether we expand into new business or not.As for \"What is the CEO to do?\", they have to pick and choose areas where the entire company needs to be involved. They must then set standards for the cultural values that are intrinsically expressed in life experiences. These are the two principles that I always follow.Q: Let's talk about a major decision! A few years ago, you said: \"We can rename Windows Azure Edge, which is just an extension of our huge business Azure. The world we are in is a mobile-first, cloud-first world.\" In 2019, you also said in an interview: \"Operating systems are no longer the most important business for us.\"But you've released Windows 11 today, and I listened to your discussion with Panos Panay, Microsoft's chief product officer, including how the novel coronavirus pneumonia pandemic has refocused your attention on Windows and what it might do. Tell us about this transformation process.NADELLA: All of these claims I've said earlier are still true because Windows doesn't exist in isolation. Windows lives in a world where cloud computing is heavily used. Now, there are multiple cloud computing service providers and a large number of cloud computing services. So any client operating system will eventually meet cloud computing. In this sense, Windows needs to be in line with cloud computing and edge computing, both in terms of technology and business model, as well as in terms of use and experience.To be sure, from a distributed computing architecture perspective, more than 1 billion Windows users are also Azure users. You could even say that Windows users will see Azure as a cloud computing service for Windows. So, I think my statement is completely correct.Another point is that Windows is also a complete ecosystem, after all, it has 1 billion users. The same goes for Android and iOS. In fact, Android and iOS will probably have more than 1 billion users, or Android has 2 billion, and maybe iOS has about the same user size as Windows. But the reality is that for any Windows user, we must first assume that they have a mobile phone, which may run Android and iOS, and we must think about this.I do think operating systems are important, and they are, because they make up a huge part of our lives, whether it's other devices with other operating systems installed, or the cloud computing services I use, they power many applications and experiences. This is a reality that cannot be ignored. Let's meet the needs of Windows users where they are, with their current needs and unmet, unexpressible needs.Q: Do you think the pandemic has pushed Windows in a different direction? For the most part, I feel that way. Everyone is working from home and is spending a lot more time staring at their Windows laptop every day than before.NADELLA: Absolutely so, there's no doubt about that. What happened during the pandemic, even for me (I don't have a home office) was sudden. I find myself not only needing to have a home office. All my kids are at home and they need to have their own separate computers. Without PCs, we can't do remote education, remote work, telemedicine, and it becomes a critical necessity.All screens in life matter. As a result, the realization that a large screen running Windows is very important because not all tasks can be done on mobile devices is becoming more common. We are coming out of the pandemic and I would say we have a renewed understanding of why we need to do some really good work to serve the customers we have today.This is why I'm considering improvements to Windows Update. I want to celebrate that, as I would with any newly launched feature, because it matters. It's important to our users, who tell me clearly in my inbox every day what I should do with Windows Update, and I'm taking that seriously now.Q: I like the idea that you and your family are at home, and all of a sudden, Windows Update becomes more real for all of us. My team always told me that as long as it was about me, it became much more important. Has anything like this ever happened?NADELLA: Indeed. Although I have to admit that people inside the company are more responsible than waiting for the CEO to experience it firsthand. We have better systems, better accountability. But that being said, if I go back to your decision-making framework question, I think I'll better understand the role that Windows has taken on in the world after this pandemic. What should we do as an ecosystem, as an operating system to serve our current customers and meet their expectations? Windows Update is an example. Furthermore, what should its innovation vehicle be? Where is the world headed?Q: This brings me to a lot of the big changes to Windows that are fundamentally about what kind of operating system Windows is going to be, what kind of business you can run on it, and what kind of business this is going to be for Microsoft. It has a new user interface with the start button located in the center of the screen. It also makes a difference on the outside.Also, you're allowing Android applications to run on Windows, and you're integrating<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/AMZN\">Amazon</a>The Android App Store. You made some changes to the store economy and reduced Microsoft's commission to 15%. This is in stark contrast to Apple's very controversial 30% rate.Then you say to developers, \"You guys can use your own payment system and don't have to pay Microsoft a commission.\" How much of this is an opportunistic change? You see all this controversy, you sense the market opportunity? How much of this is the right way to move the business?NADELLA: I think it's driven by competition. I mean, what should Microsoft do to manage the platform and set the rules for the platform so that we can continue to thrive when we take on this role? My understanding of platforms is this: they have to create opportunities for people who create content on the platform.This is the way to keep the platform relevant. If you're creating a great opportunity for someone else to be born on your platform and scale up on your platform, that's Microsoft and Windows as I'm familiar with. Whether<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/ADBE\">Adobe</a>This is true for employees creating their Creative Cloud, SAP building their ERP [enterprise resource planning] business, or building their community for gamers on Windows.In my opinion, how do we make Windows more dynamic in the future? I sense a real opportunity because the other two larger ecosystems, for a range of reasons that align within them, have, at least in my opinion, conflated the platform and aggregation layer with a set of rules. But there is no reason why such rules are needed, they can be broken down. After all, we do run the app store. We do have business dealings. You can use it or build the app store yourself. For Microsoft, this is a very practical thing.I don't even want to make the statement that the Microsoft platform meets ethical rules while other companies don't. Others choose Microsoft platform for many reasons, including design choices, or business model choices. I wanted to make our own set of design and business model choices so creators could find more options. That's the competition.Q: You mentioned the other two larger platforms, obviously iOS and Android. Then, you mention their pattern of decisions for internally consistent reasons. Apple has made its internal consistent case very clear that the App Store covers the entire platform.The most compelling reason is that this is the price Apple pays to distribute software for free. Free iOS updates are available to everyone throughout the lifetime of the phone, and the phone lasts for a long time.In order to get all this innovation, software and security updates, and other things, Apple gets a piece of the App Store revenue, which is Apple's business model. The same goes for Microsoft Windows, where users can update to Windows 11 for free. How are you going to pay for these updates if you don't want a piece of the pie?NADELLA: We have different business models. In many cases, we have subscriptions. We also have original equipment manufacturer (OEM) licensing fees. Apple apparently makes a profit by selling devices. I think everyone has to eventually have a business model that allows them to pay for what they do. I think it's just a question of where do you make money and what are the rules that you can make money through other people? They must be long-term stable.In our Microsoft case, I've always argued that at least the definition of a platform is: if something bigger than a platform can't be born, then it's not a platform. The web grew up on Windows. If we say \"all commerce is mediated through us,\" then Amazon can't exist. So I think every company has to choose and see which aggregation layer, which platform layer, and what rules work for them and their ecosystem. But, at Microsoft, it's clear to us that we do want to address the same security issues and discoverability issues, because that's one of the reasons we put emphasis on running an app store.At the same time, different creators can use the app store at different levels. We want this flexibility to be a competitive differentiation.Q. You mentioned the rules. Let's say I'm a vice president at Microsoft, and my goal this year is to increase the number of registrations for a certain feature by 30%. The easiest way for me is to go to the Windows team and tell them: \"Every time you open Windows, show people this feature to help push.\" This is the pressure that every operating system feels.Windows is certainly feeling this thrust and pull too, such as the Edge team's desire to make Edge the default browser for Windows. How do you balance this internal pressure with wanting to be an open platform so that competitors can succeed with Microsoft's own products?NADELLA: These are two different things. First, you curate a series of experiences that work well with each other, and then allow others to offer experiences that might be a substitute for something. The question is, are you allowed to do this through your own app store or other regulations, or can this happen independently of you? Take the browser as an example, it belongs to the default settings. But you don't have to just use Microsoft's browser, you can download<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/GOOG\">Google</a>Or browsers like Firefox. In a sense, it's the ability to give consumers direct choice.We want to be a platform for platform creators, not just an app platform for others. And that's the nuance that we want to point out, which is: I hope we're doing a good job of being a platform, which means that the platform needs to do everything. We will have app stores, have our own default browser, and we will design certain things ourselves. But if someone else can get into our platform and create a lot of value on our platform and use it as infrastructure (like an operating system), that's absolutely no problem.And that's also how we run our cloud computing business, by the way. It doesn't make any different for us. We have layers in the cloud from apps to infrastructure, and different app developers and companies use it in different ways.Q: It's interesting that you talked about browsers. Microsoft fought a famous antitrust battle by bundling the browser with Windows and setting it as the default browser. Now I feel that the rules in this field are clearer, and there are many changes in Windows about the default settings of browsers.Is there anything else that is not clear? Do you have internal rules? Do you have a culture where you say, \"Okay. We can set defaults, but Windows Team needs to set other platforms and other services as defaults.\"NADELLA: There's no doubt about that. But, first of all, anything we learned from antitrust cases in the '90s means that you just have to be an open platform. Some things are built into the operating system. If something is independent of the operating system, then something else can be completely replaced without compromising the integrity of the system.Even communications (whether Slack,<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/ZM\">Zoom</a>, or anything else), they can all be the best on Windows. In a sense, we're not restricting someone else's software from being available on Windows. We do have a distribution advantage, but that doesn't mean others don't have their own advantages. For me, whenever I visit the Google website, they are very aware of their distribution advantages, even on Windows PCs. There's no escape from it, it's okay.Q: How many times do you visit Google websites per day?NADELLA: YouTube is probably the one that pops up the most in my Bing search, I think.Q: Speaking of Google, you're bringing Windows closer to Android. This has been going on for a while now. One of the biggest announcements of Windows 11 is that Android apps will be available to run directly on Windows. What are the pros and cons of this decision?Nadella: Interestingly, Windows architecture always has this function. You can have multiple accounts in Windows. In fact, I remember when I first came to work for Microsoft, I was advertising POSIX interface work on Windows NT. Now, one of my favorite Windows features is WSL. I love it to death. The new terminal, as well as now we even support the full Linux UI on Windows. Linux is now the best-in-class system on Windows, and Android is just another subsystem.We based our decision on what is the best way to make more apps available to our users? How can we add value to the 1.3 billion Windows users who may need more applications? Here's the side of the problem. On the other hand, by pushing Android apps to a user base of more than 1 billion, more opportunities can be created for those who develop Android apps. I think both sides benefit from it, and for this reason it is a win-win decision. Now, it will depend on what is being adopted, what use cases are there, what apps they want to use, whether it's Android on Windows or PWAS, UWP, and what you have. We will take this open approach, and we welcome all applications.Q. What is the best objection you have heard?Nadella: I think there will always be this debate: \"Do we have to have a consistent application pattern?\"Because if you think about innovation, is there a unified NUI or AI chip? How can I activate the API of the app so that the app can take advantage of it? When you have multiple subsystems and multiple application versions, can you bring your platform system-level innovations to the surface and make all the applications stand out?In such a world, this will be a fundamental challenge, but we feel that there are still ways to deal with it. One of my views on this is that you can launch Android, PWA, or UWP apps on Windows for some new AI API in the future, even today. At Microsoft, we build apps for iOS, Android and Windows, which is one of our fundamental challenges. We're trying to make sure that as developers we can leverage as many public codebases as possible, as many cloud computing services as possible.Q: Android apps work on Android, work on Chrome OS, and will work on Windows. Do you think they will become a minimum requirement environment for developers? These developers just want to do everything well without bringing opportunities for native app development.NADELLA: I think, whether it's the web or Android, they're going to get you to multiple places faster, and then you're going to optimize on those platforms based on the feedback that users tell you, because the last thing anyone wants is apps that no one uses or that no one likes. So at the end of the day, it has to be competitive.Q: We've covered a lot of Android apps on ChromeOS, and they don't perform very well. What makes these even better?NADELLA: I'm most interested in what app developers will start doing once they launch Android apps on Windows. Will they then expand it to take advantage of some local capabilities? Can just the work we do at the system level, with all the stuff it inherits, make this possible? For example, how can I get the<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/NYT\">The New York Times</a>\"Or the Wall Street Journal app, and then see it next to the PWA app? With all the windowing work, it worked beautifully. Now the question is, what is the user's experience? They will tell us with their clicks.Q: You're partnering with Amazon to distribute the Amazon app. You said at the launch event that other Android app stores are welcome to participate in the distribution system of Windows. The Amazon App Store is currently very focused on Amazon's own Fire tablets and products, and it hasn't done too well.It certainly doesn't have the sales volume that the Google Play Store provides for Android apps. Do you think things will get better? Do you think it's good enough now? Talk about your partnership.Nadella: I think this is a good starting point for us. I hope more developers even see Amazon App Store as a way to reach more users. I hope it's good for them and for us. Like I said, if this works, I think even Google will be tempted! If they feel this is a way to increase usage of Android apps, we would welcome any other app store. Of course, there are parts of the world where there are already plenty of alternatives to the Android App Store, and they are even bigger than the Google App Store. So we'll also see what happens in this dynamic.Q: You guys are going through Amazon's app terms, which probably won't get in the way of this partnership. Here is their app store. If Google comes along, they will also have their own store and their own economy. So do you think the terms there will be competitive? Will they fight for developers?NADELLA: It's actually a fascinating question. That's the problem, right? On Windows, there are a lot of app stores, and there should be competition in this space. It's sort of like having multiple operating systems, and what would it look like if there were multiple markets all vibrant and competitive on any given operating system? You've seen the impact in games for Windows, and I hope now we'll see it on all app categories.Q: You have reduced the commission rate on the Microsoft App Store to 15%. You think developers should pay Microsoft this money instead of launching their own payment system?NADELLA: All the things that people expect in the app store today will make you feel at ease because someone will manage the app, look at the security of the app, and then make it easy for you to find the app you want. Of course, then there is business ability involved. All of this comes at a real cost.We don't think of the app store as a separate business, it's a utility that adds value to the operating system. At present, the app store needs to be an integral part of the operating system. We couldn't agree more with that. Only there is a question: Should there be competition and flexibility? Even there, we have our own rules. Other platforms may have other rules and users will make choices.Q: The U.S. Congress is discussing antitrust bills on digital markets, some of which even target the ecosystems of Apple and Google directly, while other legislation targets other parts of the technology stack. Do you think Microsoft will get slammed for what it does in Azure or Windows?NADELLA: Any rule that MPs propose will apply to every industry player. Therefore, Microsoft will be an integral part of it. The question is which proposals will eventually become law. Then, we look at Microsoft's relationship to these legislations. In my opinion, digital technology has these two forms: the first one, I call it a factor of production, which is an input to other people's creation. The second is the distribution factor. There is no better word to describe it now. It is about matching supply and demand.The operating system is actually the input created by others, while the app store is more of a distribution ability. You combine the two, establish rules, and then create their own stacking effects around what's happening in the competing ecosystem around you. So I think that's where people look at this from a legislative perspective. They will ask \"Which set of rules will create the most surpluses in the broader economy?\" That's a good thing.I think competition has always been the best driving force to help capitalism move forward, and we will be bound by the same rules as everyone else.Q: You mentioned the ecosystem, and I wanted to ask you about the role Microsoft plays in the broader ecosystem. Most people won't experience Windows on Microsoft hardware. Surface products are great, but most people use other company chips on other company laptops to experience Windows.Some parts of this ecosystem are doing well but some are lagging behind. I'm curious how you saw the connection with<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/INTC\">Intel</a>The potential for collaboration and their roadmap and all the things you might want to do with custom AI hardware and other features you discussed.Nadella: First of all, for us, the cooperation with Intel is pretty critical, and we are excited about Pat Gelsinger (Intel's new CEO) and his team and their innovation roadmap, and we will definitely work with them in depth, and we work with<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/AMD\">AMD</a>And<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/QCOM\">Qualcomm</a>So will it be.For example: personal computers have always represented a very broad field of design, whether it is silicon wafer innovation, board level innovation, ASICs, how they are assembled, and<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/NVDA\">Nvidia</a>What was done on the GPU, etc. This is why we make amazing gaming PCs, laptops, desktops.I think in the next 10 years, when we see Gelsinger talk about future plans, I will be very excited. What level of innovation will make us rethink the operating system, and what will make there be vibrant competition and innovation? I look at the innovation of Intel, Qualcomm, AMB, as well as Nvidia, and say, \"I want to do a great job of bringing all that innovation to life through Windows and then present it to developers.\" You take your UWP, PWA, Android apps and light up silicon innovation with Windows. This is the opportunity I see. Our<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/DELL\">Dell</a>、<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/HPQ\">Hewlett Packard</a>And OEM partners like Lenovo are excited about this.Q: Microsoft has only launched one Android device so far, namely the Surface Duo. Are you guys planning to launch more?Nadella: I don't think the Surface Duo is a replacement for mobile phones. Even though sometimes I dream that it is a mobile phone, it is not a mobile phone after all. It does have calling and receiving capabilities, but if we tried to launch the phone, we wouldn't build it, and we wanted to see what happens next.I love the Surface Duo because it's definitely my notebook, the Moleskine I carry with me. I do use it as a cell phone, but that's unique. This is not the best use case. But my goodness, do I really enjoy reading Kindle and taking OneNote notes on one screen? This is my killer app. We built it for that. I want to keep innovating in this area. Whether it's the HoloLens or the Surface Duo, I hope we can continue to innovate in form and functionality.","source":"txkj","collect":0,"html":"<!DOCTYPE html>\n<html>\n<head>\n<meta http-equiv=\"Content-Type\" content=\"text/html; charset=utf-8\" />\n<meta name=\"viewport\" content=\"width=device-width,initial-scale=1.0,minimum-scale=1.0,maximum-scale=1.0,user-scalable=no\"/>\n<meta name=\"format-detection\" content=\"telephone=no,email=no,address=no\" />\n<title>Transcript of Nadella's exclusive interview: Windows ecosystem will be more open</title>\n<style type=\"text/css\">\na,abbr,acronym,address,applet,article,aside,audio,b,big,blockquote,body,canvas,caption,center,cite,code,dd,del,details,dfn,div,dl,dt,\nem,embed,fieldset,figcaption,figure,footer,form,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6,header,hgroup,html,i,iframe,img,ins,kbd,label,legend,li,mark,menu,nav,\nobject,ol,output,p,pre,q,ruby,s,samp,section,small,span,strike,strong,sub,summary,sup,table,tbody,td,tfoot,th,thead,time,tr,tt,u,ul,var,video{ font:inherit;margin:0;padding:0;vertical-align:baseline;border:0 }\nbody{ font-size:16px; line-height:1.5; color:#999; background:transparent; }\n.wrapper{ overflow:hidden;word-break:break-all;padding:10px; }\nh1,h2{ font-weight:normal; line-height:1.35; margin-bottom:.6em; }\nh3,h4,h5,h6{ line-height:1.35; margin-bottom:1em; }\nh1{ font-size:24px; }\nh2{ font-size:20px; }\nh3{ font-size:18px; }\nh4{ font-size:16px; }\nh5{ font-size:14px; }\nh6{ font-size:12px; }\np,ul,ol,blockquote,dl,table{ margin:1.2em 0; }\nul,ol{ margin-left:2em; }\nul{ list-style:disc; }\nol{ list-style:decimal; }\nli,li p{ margin:10px 0;}\nimg{ max-width:100%;display:block;margin:0 auto 1em; }\nblockquote{ color:#B5B2B1; border-left:3px solid #aaa; padding:1em; }\nstrong,b{font-weight:bold;}\nem,i{font-style:italic;}\ntable{ width:100%;border-collapse:collapse;border-spacing:1px;margin:1em 0;font-size:.9em; }\nth,td{ padding:5px;text-align:left;border:1px solid #aaa; }\nth{ font-weight:bold;background:#5d5d5d; }\n.symbol-link{font-weight:bold;}\n/* header{ border-bottom:1px solid #494756; } */\n.title{ margin:0 0 8px;line-height:1.3;color:#ddd; }\n.meta {color:#5e5c6d;font-size:13px;margin:0 0 .5em; }\na{text-decoration:none; color:#2a4b87;}\n.meta .head { display: inline-block; overflow: hidden}\n.head .h-thumb { width: 30px; height: 30px; margin: 0; padding: 0; border-radius: 50%; float: left;}\n.head .h-content { margin: 0; padding: 0 0 0 9px; float: left;}\n.head .h-name {font-size: 13px; color: #eee; margin: 0;}\n.head .h-time {font-size: 12.5px; color: #7E829C; margin: 0;}\n.small {font-size: 12.5px; display: inline-block; transform: scale(0.9); -webkit-transform: scale(0.9); transform-origin: left; -webkit-transform-origin: left;}\n.smaller {font-size: 12.5px; display: inline-block; transform: scale(0.8); -webkit-transform: scale(0.8); transform-origin: left; -webkit-transform-origin: left;}\n.bt-text {font-size: 12px;margin: 1.5em 0 0 0}\n.bt-text p {margin: 0}\n</style>\n</head>\n<body>\n<div class=\"wrapper\">\n<header>\n<h2 class=\"title\">\nTranscript of Nadella's exclusive interview: Windows ecosystem will be more open\n</h2>\n<h4 class=\"meta\">\n\n腾讯科技2021-06-26 13:15\n\n</h4>\n</header>\n<article>\nNews on June 26,<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/MSFT\">Microsoft</a>Just released a new version of its flagship operating system, Windows 11, which comes with a fresh design, adds a lot of new features and is able to run Android apps. At the same time, there have been major changes in the way Windows applications are distributed. Microsoft is opening up the Windows App Store, allowing developers to put more kinds of applications on the store. Developers can also use their own payment system, so they don't have to pay commissions to Microsoft.Recently, related to<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/AAPL\">Apple</a>The high commissions charged by the app store and the company's tight control of developers on its platform have caused a lot of controversy, as well as lawsuits, congressional legislation and even the attention of European regulators. While Microsoft and its CEO Satya Nadella have repositioned Windows, saying that the Windows ecosystem will be more open, and the goal of Windows is to allow other companies to build their own huge businesses and platforms without Microsoft obstructing them.For Apple and Microsoft, this sounds like a complete reversal in the attitude of the two companies. Twenty years ago, when Mac was a relatively open platform, Microsoft was facing tremendous pressure from regulators. After Microsoft released Windows 11, Nadella accepted an exclusive interview with American media, talking about a completely different strategy from Apple's, how he views Microsoft's responsibilities when Windows is used as a platform, and how he thinks various antitrust legislation in Congress will affect Microsoft's future plans.The following is the full text of Nadella's interview:Q: Microsoft just released Windows 11, and there's definitely a lot to talk about, but I want to start this conversation with some personal questions. You only recently became chairman of Microsoft, and you also serve as CEO. What does it really mean to be a chairman?Nadella: As you know, the reality is that at least in terms of corporate governance in the United States, it is the independent directors who really have absolute power over all management members. They can decide issues including my appointment and dismissal, salary and performance. Basically, they can decide whether to hire or fire me. Independent directors are the people who really have the power of corporate governance. If anything after becoming chairman, my reading of these changes is, fundamentally, how do we bring the management team and the board together around Microsoft's goals and strategy? How do we, as a team, hold ourselves accountable?So, as someone described it to me, maybe I should go to more meetings, or more board meetings. But I think it's just a natural result of what I've been doing consistently for the last seven years. Frankly, there hasn't really been changes in terms of the rigor of corporate governance and who really has the power to hire and fire CEOs. This is the power of independent directors on Microsoft's board of directors.Q: Which leads directly to my next question, which is who is your boss? To whom are you most responsible?NADELLA: In a sense, the board and independent directors can decide everything. If your boss is defined as someone who can ultimately hold you accountable, then for Microsoft, the boss is an independent director on Microsoft's board of directors.Q: I have asked many executives this question: What is your decision-making framework? Microsoft is a huge business, with a lot of different businesses, and the scale of each business is huge, how do you guys make decisions?NADELLA: I try to simplify the situation. I have this framework myself, and I have always followed this framework since I became CEO. The decision-making process first begins with following Microsoft's mission and ends with following corporate culture, and in the middle is our worldview, our strategic thinking. I think the things that stay timeless are the sense of mission, purpose and culture, while the things that change are the worldview and strategy.Your take on the decision-making framework: Anything we do has to be aligned with the first question, which is: Does this thing make sense considering us as a company? More importantly, if we do this, will it add value that is unique in the world? Is this something that will both set us apart from the competition and be useful to people? For me, this is the most helpful way of whether we expand into new business or not.As for \"What is the CEO to do?\", they have to pick and choose areas where the entire company needs to be involved. They must then set standards for the cultural values that are intrinsically expressed in life experiences. These are the two principles that I always follow.Q: Let's talk about a major decision! A few years ago, you said: \"We can rename Windows Azure Edge, which is just an extension of our huge business Azure. The world we are in is a mobile-first, cloud-first world.\" In 2019, you also said in an interview: \"Operating systems are no longer the most important business for us.\"But you've released Windows 11 today, and I listened to your discussion with Panos Panay, Microsoft's chief product officer, including how the novel coronavirus pneumonia pandemic has refocused your attention on Windows and what it might do. Tell us about this transformation process.NADELLA: All of these claims I've said earlier are still true because Windows doesn't exist in isolation. Windows lives in a world where cloud computing is heavily used. Now, there are multiple cloud computing service providers and a large number of cloud computing services. So any client operating system will eventually meet cloud computing. In this sense, Windows needs to be in line with cloud computing and edge computing, both in terms of technology and business model, as well as in terms of use and experience.To be sure, from a distributed computing architecture perspective, more than 1 billion Windows users are also Azure users. You could even say that Windows users will see Azure as a cloud computing service for Windows. So, I think my statement is completely correct.Another point is that Windows is also a complete ecosystem, after all, it has 1 billion users. The same goes for Android and iOS. In fact, Android and iOS will probably have more than 1 billion users, or Android has 2 billion, and maybe iOS has about the same user size as Windows. But the reality is that for any Windows user, we must first assume that they have a mobile phone, which may run Android and iOS, and we must think about this.I do think operating systems are important, and they are, because they make up a huge part of our lives, whether it's other devices with other operating systems installed, or the cloud computing services I use, they power many applications and experiences. This is a reality that cannot be ignored. Let's meet the needs of Windows users where they are, with their current needs and unmet, unexpressible needs.Q: Do you think the pandemic has pushed Windows in a different direction? For the most part, I feel that way. Everyone is working from home and is spending a lot more time staring at their Windows laptop every day than before.NADELLA: Absolutely so, there's no doubt about that. What happened during the pandemic, even for me (I don't have a home office) was sudden. I find myself not only needing to have a home office. All my kids are at home and they need to have their own separate computers. Without PCs, we can't do remote education, remote work, telemedicine, and it becomes a critical necessity.All screens in life matter. As a result, the realization that a large screen running Windows is very important because not all tasks can be done on mobile devices is becoming more common. We are coming out of the pandemic and I would say we have a renewed understanding of why we need to do some really good work to serve the customers we have today.This is why I'm considering improvements to Windows Update. I want to celebrate that, as I would with any newly launched feature, because it matters. It's important to our users, who tell me clearly in my inbox every day what I should do with Windows Update, and I'm taking that seriously now.Q: I like the idea that you and your family are at home, and all of a sudden, Windows Update becomes more real for all of us. My team always told me that as long as it was about me, it became much more important. Has anything like this ever happened?NADELLA: Indeed. Although I have to admit that people inside the company are more responsible than waiting for the CEO to experience it firsthand. We have better systems, better accountability. But that being said, if I go back to your decision-making framework question, I think I'll better understand the role that Windows has taken on in the world after this pandemic. What should we do as an ecosystem, as an operating system to serve our current customers and meet their expectations? Windows Update is an example. Furthermore, what should its innovation vehicle be? Where is the world headed?Q: This brings me to a lot of the big changes to Windows that are fundamentally about what kind of operating system Windows is going to be, what kind of business you can run on it, and what kind of business this is going to be for Microsoft. It has a new user interface with the start button located in the center of the screen. It also makes a difference on the outside.Also, you're allowing Android applications to run on Windows, and you're integrating<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/AMZN\">Amazon</a>The Android App Store. You made some changes to the store economy and reduced Microsoft's commission to 15%. This is in stark contrast to Apple's very controversial 30% rate.Then you say to developers, \"You guys can use your own payment system and don't have to pay Microsoft a commission.\" How much of this is an opportunistic change? You see all this controversy, you sense the market opportunity? How much of this is the right way to move the business?NADELLA: I think it's driven by competition. I mean, what should Microsoft do to manage the platform and set the rules for the platform so that we can continue to thrive when we take on this role? My understanding of platforms is this: they have to create opportunities for people who create content on the platform.This is the way to keep the platform relevant. If you're creating a great opportunity for someone else to be born on your platform and scale up on your platform, that's Microsoft and Windows as I'm familiar with. Whether<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/ADBE\">Adobe</a>This is true for employees creating their Creative Cloud, SAP building their ERP [enterprise resource planning] business, or building their community for gamers on Windows.In my opinion, how do we make Windows more dynamic in the future? I sense a real opportunity because the other two larger ecosystems, for a range of reasons that align within them, have, at least in my opinion, conflated the platform and aggregation layer with a set of rules. But there is no reason why such rules are needed, they can be broken down. After all, we do run the app store. We do have business dealings. You can use it or build the app store yourself. For Microsoft, this is a very practical thing.I don't even want to make the statement that the Microsoft platform meets ethical rules while other companies don't. Others choose Microsoft platform for many reasons, including design choices, or business model choices. I wanted to make our own set of design and business model choices so creators could find more options. That's the competition.Q: You mentioned the other two larger platforms, obviously iOS and Android. Then, you mention their pattern of decisions for internally consistent reasons. Apple has made its internal consistent case very clear that the App Store covers the entire platform.The most compelling reason is that this is the price Apple pays to distribute software for free. Free iOS updates are available to everyone throughout the lifetime of the phone, and the phone lasts for a long time.In order to get all this innovation, software and security updates, and other things, Apple gets a piece of the App Store revenue, which is Apple's business model. The same goes for Microsoft Windows, where users can update to Windows 11 for free. How are you going to pay for these updates if you don't want a piece of the pie?NADELLA: We have different business models. In many cases, we have subscriptions. We also have original equipment manufacturer (OEM) licensing fees. Apple apparently makes a profit by selling devices. I think everyone has to eventually have a business model that allows them to pay for what they do. I think it's just a question of where do you make money and what are the rules that you can make money through other people? They must be long-term stable.In our Microsoft case, I've always argued that at least the definition of a platform is: if something bigger than a platform can't be born, then it's not a platform. The web grew up on Windows. If we say \"all commerce is mediated through us,\" then Amazon can't exist. So I think every company has to choose and see which aggregation layer, which platform layer, and what rules work for them and their ecosystem. But, at Microsoft, it's clear to us that we do want to address the same security issues and discoverability issues, because that's one of the reasons we put emphasis on running an app store.At the same time, different creators can use the app store at different levels. We want this flexibility to be a competitive differentiation.Q. You mentioned the rules. Let's say I'm a vice president at Microsoft, and my goal this year is to increase the number of registrations for a certain feature by 30%. The easiest way for me is to go to the Windows team and tell them: \"Every time you open Windows, show people this feature to help push.\" This is the pressure that every operating system feels.Windows is certainly feeling this thrust and pull too, such as the Edge team's desire to make Edge the default browser for Windows. How do you balance this internal pressure with wanting to be an open platform so that competitors can succeed with Microsoft's own products?NADELLA: These are two different things. First, you curate a series of experiences that work well with each other, and then allow others to offer experiences that might be a substitute for something. The question is, are you allowed to do this through your own app store or other regulations, or can this happen independently of you? Take the browser as an example, it belongs to the default settings. But you don't have to just use Microsoft's browser, you can download<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/GOOG\">Google</a>Or browsers like Firefox. In a sense, it's the ability to give consumers direct choice.We want to be a platform for platform creators, not just an app platform for others. And that's the nuance that we want to point out, which is: I hope we're doing a good job of being a platform, which means that the platform needs to do everything. We will have app stores, have our own default browser, and we will design certain things ourselves. But if someone else can get into our platform and create a lot of value on our platform and use it as infrastructure (like an operating system), that's absolutely no problem.And that's also how we run our cloud computing business, by the way. It doesn't make any different for us. We have layers in the cloud from apps to infrastructure, and different app developers and companies use it in different ways.Q: It's interesting that you talked about browsers. Microsoft fought a famous antitrust battle by bundling the browser with Windows and setting it as the default browser. Now I feel that the rules in this field are clearer, and there are many changes in Windows about the default settings of browsers.Is there anything else that is not clear? Do you have internal rules? Do you have a culture where you say, \"Okay. We can set defaults, but Windows Team needs to set other platforms and other services as defaults.\"NADELLA: There's no doubt about that. But, first of all, anything we learned from antitrust cases in the '90s means that you just have to be an open platform. Some things are built into the operating system. If something is independent of the operating system, then something else can be completely replaced without compromising the integrity of the system.Even communications (whether Slack,<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/ZM\">Zoom</a>, or anything else), they can all be the best on Windows. In a sense, we're not restricting someone else's software from being available on Windows. We do have a distribution advantage, but that doesn't mean others don't have their own advantages. For me, whenever I visit the Google website, they are very aware of their distribution advantages, even on Windows PCs. There's no escape from it, it's okay.Q: How many times do you visit Google websites per day?NADELLA: YouTube is probably the one that pops up the most in my Bing search, I think.Q: Speaking of Google, you're bringing Windows closer to Android. This has been going on for a while now. One of the biggest announcements of Windows 11 is that Android apps will be available to run directly on Windows. What are the pros and cons of this decision?Nadella: Interestingly, Windows architecture always has this function. You can have multiple accounts in Windows. In fact, I remember when I first came to work for Microsoft, I was advertising POSIX interface work on Windows NT. Now, one of my favorite Windows features is WSL. I love it to death. The new terminal, as well as now we even support the full Linux UI on Windows. Linux is now the best-in-class system on Windows, and Android is just another subsystem.We based our decision on what is the best way to make more apps available to our users? How can we add value to the 1.3 billion Windows users who may need more applications? Here's the side of the problem. On the other hand, by pushing Android apps to a user base of more than 1 billion, more opportunities can be created for those who develop Android apps. I think both sides benefit from it, and for this reason it is a win-win decision. Now, it will depend on what is being adopted, what use cases are there, what apps they want to use, whether it's Android on Windows or PWAS, UWP, and what you have. We will take this open approach, and we welcome all applications.Q. What is the best objection you have heard?Nadella: I think there will always be this debate: \"Do we have to have a consistent application pattern?\"Because if you think about innovation, is there a unified NUI or AI chip? How can I activate the API of the app so that the app can take advantage of it? When you have multiple subsystems and multiple application versions, can you bring your platform system-level innovations to the surface and make all the applications stand out?In such a world, this will be a fundamental challenge, but we feel that there are still ways to deal with it. One of my views on this is that you can launch Android, PWA, or UWP apps on Windows for some new AI API in the future, even today. At Microsoft, we build apps for iOS, Android and Windows, which is one of our fundamental challenges. We're trying to make sure that as developers we can leverage as many public codebases as possible, as many cloud computing services as possible.Q: Android apps work on Android, work on Chrome OS, and will work on Windows. Do you think they will become a minimum requirement environment for developers? These developers just want to do everything well without bringing opportunities for native app development.NADELLA: I think, whether it's the web or Android, they're going to get you to multiple places faster, and then you're going to optimize on those platforms based on the feedback that users tell you, because the last thing anyone wants is apps that no one uses or that no one likes. So at the end of the day, it has to be competitive.Q: We've covered a lot of Android apps on ChromeOS, and they don't perform very well. What makes these even better?NADELLA: I'm most interested in what app developers will start doing once they launch Android apps on Windows. Will they then expand it to take advantage of some local capabilities? Can just the work we do at the system level, with all the stuff it inherits, make this possible? For example, how can I get the<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/NYT\">The New York Times</a>\"Or the Wall Street Journal app, and then see it next to the PWA app? With all the windowing work, it worked beautifully. Now the question is, what is the user's experience? They will tell us with their clicks.Q: You're partnering with Amazon to distribute the Amazon app. You said at the launch event that other Android app stores are welcome to participate in the distribution system of Windows. The Amazon App Store is currently very focused on Amazon's own Fire tablets and products, and it hasn't done too well.It certainly doesn't have the sales volume that the Google Play Store provides for Android apps. Do you think things will get better? Do you think it's good enough now? Talk about your partnership.Nadella: I think this is a good starting point for us. I hope more developers even see Amazon App Store as a way to reach more users. I hope it's good for them and for us. Like I said, if this works, I think even Google will be tempted! If they feel this is a way to increase usage of Android apps, we would welcome any other app store. Of course, there are parts of the world where there are already plenty of alternatives to the Android App Store, and they are even bigger than the Google App Store. So we'll also see what happens in this dynamic.Q: You guys are going through Amazon's app terms, which probably won't get in the way of this partnership. Here is their app store. If Google comes along, they will also have their own store and their own economy. So do you think the terms there will be competitive? Will they fight for developers?NADELLA: It's actually a fascinating question. That's the problem, right? On Windows, there are a lot of app stores, and there should be competition in this space. It's sort of like having multiple operating systems, and what would it look like if there were multiple markets all vibrant and competitive on any given operating system? You've seen the impact in games for Windows, and I hope now we'll see it on all app categories.Q: You have reduced the commission rate on the Microsoft App Store to 15%. You think developers should pay Microsoft this money instead of launching their own payment system?NADELLA: All the things that people expect in the app store today will make you feel at ease because someone will manage the app, look at the security of the app, and then make it easy for you to find the app you want. Of course, then there is business ability involved. All of this comes at a real cost.We don't think of the app store as a separate business, it's a utility that adds value to the operating system. At present, the app store needs to be an integral part of the operating system. We couldn't agree more with that. Only there is a question: Should there be competition and flexibility? Even there, we have our own rules. Other platforms may have other rules and users will make choices.Q: The U.S. Congress is discussing antitrust bills on digital markets, some of which even target the ecosystems of Apple and Google directly, while other legislation targets other parts of the technology stack. Do you think Microsoft will get slammed for what it does in Azure or Windows?NADELLA: Any rule that MPs propose will apply to every industry player. Therefore, Microsoft will be an integral part of it. The question is which proposals will eventually become law. Then, we look at Microsoft's relationship to these legislations. In my opinion, digital technology has these two forms: the first one, I call it a factor of production, which is an input to other people's creation. The second is the distribution factor. There is no better word to describe it now. It is about matching supply and demand.The operating system is actually the input created by others, while the app store is more of a distribution ability. You combine the two, establish rules, and then create their own stacking effects around what's happening in the competing ecosystem around you. So I think that's where people look at this from a legislative perspective. They will ask \"Which set of rules will create the most surpluses in the broader economy?\" That's a good thing.I think competition has always been the best driving force to help capitalism move forward, and we will be bound by the same rules as everyone else.Q: You mentioned the ecosystem, and I wanted to ask you about the role Microsoft plays in the broader ecosystem. Most people won't experience Windows on Microsoft hardware. Surface products are great, but most people use other company chips on other company laptops to experience Windows.Some parts of this ecosystem are doing well but some are lagging behind. I'm curious how you saw the connection with<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/INTC\">Intel</a>The potential for collaboration and their roadmap and all the things you might want to do with custom AI hardware and other features you discussed.Nadella: First of all, for us, the cooperation with Intel is pretty critical, and we are excited about Pat Gelsinger (Intel's new CEO) and his team and their innovation roadmap, and we will definitely work with them in depth, and we work with<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/AMD\">AMD</a>And<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/QCOM\">Qualcomm</a>So will it be.For example: personal computers have always represented a very broad field of design, whether it is silicon wafer innovation, board level innovation, ASICs, how they are assembled, and<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/NVDA\">Nvidia</a>What was done on the GPU, etc. This is why we make amazing gaming PCs, laptops, desktops.I think in the next 10 years, when we see Gelsinger talk about future plans, I will be very excited. What level of innovation will make us rethink the operating system, and what will make there be vibrant competition and innovation? I look at the innovation of Intel, Qualcomm, AMB, as well as Nvidia, and say, \"I want to do a great job of bringing all that innovation to life through Windows and then present it to developers.\" You take your UWP, PWA, Android apps and light up silicon innovation with Windows. This is the opportunity I see. Our<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/DELL\">Dell</a>、<a href=\"https://laohu8.com/S/HPQ\">Hewlett Packard</a>And OEM partners like Lenovo are excited about this.Q: Microsoft has only launched one Android device so far, namely the Surface Duo. Are you guys planning to launch more?Nadella: I don't think the Surface Duo is a replacement for mobile phones. Even though sometimes I dream that it is a mobile phone, it is not a mobile phone after all. It does have calling and receiving capabilities, but if we tried to launch the phone, we wouldn't build it, and we wanted to see what happens next.I love the Surface Duo because it's definitely my notebook, the Moleskine I carry with me. I do use it as a cell phone, but that's unique. This is not the best use case. But my goodness, do I really enjoy reading Kindle and taking OneNote notes on one screen? This is my killer app. We built it for that. I want to keep innovating in this area. Whether it's the HoloLens or the Surface Duo, I hope we can continue to innovate in form and functionality.\n<div class=\"bt-text\">\n\n\n source：<a href=\"https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/t1UE1JzfvHKYUVmN8RdVDA\">腾讯科技</a>\n\n\n</div>\n</article>\n</div>\n</body>\n</html>\n","type":0,"thumbnail":"https://static.tigerbbs.com/b68a748d018e34ee2219853146364fac","relate_stocks":{"MSFT":"微软"},"source_url":"https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/t1UE1JzfvHKYUVmN8RdVDA","is_english":false,"share_image_url":"https://static.laohu8.com/e9f99090a1c2ed51c021029395664489","article_id":"1183924667","content_text":"6月26日消息，微软刚刚发布了其新版旗舰操作系统Windows 11，它采用了全新的设计，增加了许多新功能，并能够运行安卓应用程序。与此同时，Windows应用程序的分发方式也发生了重大变化。微软正在开放Windows应用商店，允许开发者在商店里上架更多种类的应用程序，开发者也可以使用自己的支付系统，从而不必向微软支付佣金。\n最近，有关苹果应用商店收取高额佣金以及该公司对其平台上开发者的严格控制，引发了很多争议，还有诉讼、国会立法，甚至引来欧洲监管机构关注。而微软及其首席执行官萨蒂亚·纳德拉（Satya Nadella）重新为Windows定位，称Windows生态系统将更加开放，Windows的目标是允许其他公司在没有微软阻挠的情况下建立自己的庞大业务和平台。\n对于苹果和微软来说，这听起来像是两家公司的态度来了个彻底反转。20年前，当Mac还是个相对比较开放的平台时，而微软当时正面临着监管机构的巨大压力。微软发布Windows 11后，纳德拉接受了美国媒体专访，谈及与苹果截然不同的策略，他如何看待Windows作为平台时微软需要承担的职责，以及他认为国会的各种反垄断立法将如何影响微软的未来计划。\n以下为纳德拉专访全文：\n问：微软刚刚发布了Windows 11，这其中肯定有很多话题可谈，但我想从某些个人问题开始这次对话。你最近才成为微软的董事长，同时兼任首席执行官。当董事长到底意味着什么？\n纳德拉：如你所知，现实是，至少在美国的公司治理方面，真正对所有管理层成员拥有绝对权力的是独立董事，他们可以决定包括我的任免、薪酬以及业绩等问题。基本上，他们可以决定是否雇用或解雇我。独立董事们是真正拥有公司治理权的人。如果说成为董事长后有什么不同的话，我对这些变化的解读是，从根本上说，我们如何让管理团队和董事会围绕微软的目标和战略走到一起？作为一个团队，我们如何对自己负责？\n所以，就像有人给我描述的那样，也许我应该参加更多的会议，或者更多的董事会会议。但我认为这只是我过去七年来始终在做的事情的自然结果。坦率地说，在公司治理的严格性和谁真正拥有CEO聘任权和解雇权方面，并没有真正发生变化。这就是微软董事会独立董事的权力。\n问：这直接引出了我的下一个问题，那就是谁是你的老板？你对谁最负责？\n纳德拉：从某种意义上说，董事会和独立董事可以决定一切。如果你的老板被定义为最终能让你承担责任的人，那对于微软来说，老板就是微软董事会中的独立董事。\n问：我曾问过许多高管这个问题：你们的决策框架是什么？微软是一家庞大的企业，有很多不同的业务，而且每项业务的规模都很大，你们是如何做出决策的？\n纳德拉：我试着简化这种情况。我自己有这样框架，自从成为首席执行官以来，我也始终在遵循这个框架。决策过程首先以遵循微软的使命开始，以遵循企业文化结束，中间是我们的世界观，我们的战略思考。我认为永恒的东西是使命感、目的和文化，而变化的东西是世界观和战略。\n你对决策框架的看法是：我们做的任何事情都必须与第一个问题保持一致，那就是：考虑到我们作为一家公司，这件事有意义吗？更重要的是，如果我们这样做，它会增加世界上独一无二的价值吗？这是不是既能让我们在竞争中脱颖而出，又是对人们有用的东西？对我来说，这是我们是否拓展新业务最有帮助的方式。\n至于“首席执行官该做什么？”，他们必须挑选整个公司需要参与的领域。然后，他们必须为在生活体验中内在表达的文化价值观设定标准。这就是我始终在遵循的两大原则。\n问：下面我们来谈谈一个重大决定！几年前，你曾说过：“我们可以把Windows重新命名为Azure Edge，这只是我们庞大业务Azure的延伸。我们所处的世界是移动优先、云优先的世界。”2019年，你在接受采访时也说过：“对我们来说，操作系统不再是最重要的业务。”\n但你们如今发布了Windows 11，我听了你和微软首席产品官帕诺斯·帕奈(Panos Panay)的讨论，包括新冠肺炎疫情是如何让你的注意力重新集中在Windows上，以及它可能做些什么。给我们介绍下这种转变过程。\n纳德拉：我之前所说的所有这些说法仍然是正确的，因为Windows并不是孤立存在的。Windows生活在云计算被大量使用的世界里。现在，有多个云计算服务提供商和大量的云计算服务。因此，任何客户端操作系统最终都会与云计算相遇。从这个意义上说，无论是技术上和商业模式上，还是使用和体验上，Windows都需要与云计算和边缘计算接轨。\n可以肯定的是，从分布式计算架构的角度来看，超过10亿的Windows用户也是Azure用户。你甚至可以说，Windows用户会把Azure看作是Windows的云计算服务。所以，我认为自己的说法是完全正确的。\n另一点是，Windows也是个完整的生态系统，毕竟其有10亿用户。安卓和iOS也是如此。事实上，安卓和iOS可能会有超过10亿用户，或者安卓有20亿，也许iOS的用户规模和Windows差不多。但现实是，对于任何Windows用户，我们必须首先假设他们有一部手机，手机可能运行安卓和iOS，我们必须对此进行考量。\n我确实认为操作系统很重要，事实也是如此，因为它们构成了我们生活中的重要组成部分，无论是安装了其他操作系统的其他设备，还是我使用的云计算服务，它们都为许多应用程序和体验提供了动力。这是个不容忽视的现实。让我们在Windows用户所在的地方满足他们的需求，满足他们当前的需求和未得到满足的、无法表达的需求。\n问：你认为是疫情把Windows推向了不同的方向吗？在很大程度上，我就有这样的感觉。每个人都在家里工作，每天盯着Windows笔记本电脑的时间都比以前多了很多。\n纳德拉：绝对是这样，这是毋庸置疑的。疫情期间发生的事情，即使对我来说（我没有家庭办公室）也很突然。我发现自己不仅需要有家庭办公室。我所有的孩子都在家，她们需要有自己的独立电脑。没有个人电脑，我们就不能进行远程教育、远程工作、远程医疗，它变成了关键必需品。\n生活中的所有屏幕都很重要。因此，人们意识到运行Windows的大屏幕非常重要，因为并不是所有的任务都可以在移动设备上完成，这种认识变得越来越普遍。我们正从疫情中走出来，我想说的是，我们重新认识到为何我们需要做些非常好的工作来服务于我们今天拥有的客户。\n这就是我考虑对Windows Update进行改进的原因。我想庆祝这一点，就像庆祝任何新推出的功能一样，因为它很重要。这对我们的用户很重要，他们每天都会在我的收件箱里明确地告诉我，我应该用Windows Update做什么，我现在很认真地对待这一点。\n问：我喜欢这样的想法：你和你的家人都在家，突然之间，Windows Update对我们所有人来说都变得更真实。我的团队总是告诉我，只要是关于我的，它就变得重要得多。有没有发生过这样的事？\n纳德拉：的确如此。尽管我不得不承认，公司内部的人比等待首席执行官亲身体验要负更多的责任。我们有更好的系统，更好的问责制度。但话虽如此，如果我回到你的决策框架问题，我想我会更好地理解这次疫情后Windows在世界上所担负的角色。作为一个生态系统，作为一个操作系统，我们应该做些什么才能服务于当前的客户并满足他们的期望？Windows Update就是个例子。此外，它的创新载体应该是什么？世界正在走向何方？\n问：这让我想到了Windows的许多重大变化，这些变化从根本上讲是关于Windows将成为一种什么样的操作系统的，你可以在它上面运行什么样的业务，以及这对微软来说将是什么样的业务。它有了新的用户界面，开始按钮位于屏幕中央。这在外表上看也带来了改变。\n同时，你们也允许安卓应用程序在Windows上运行，你们正在集成亚马逊的安卓应用商店。你对商店经济做了些改变，把微软的佣金降到了15%。这与苹果非常有争议的30%费率形成了鲜明对比。\n然后你对开发者说：“你们可以使用自己的支付系统，并且不必向微软支付佣金。”这其中有多少是机会主义式的变化？你看到了所有这些争议，你感觉到了市场机会？这其中有多少是转移业务的正确方式？\n纳德拉：我认为这是由竞争推动的。我的意思是，微软应该做些什么来管理平台和制定平台规则，才能让我们在担负这个角色时继续茁壮成长？我对平台的理解是：它们必须为在平台上创作内容的人创造机会。\n这是保持平台相关性的方法。如果你正在创造一个很好的机会，让其他人在你的平台上诞生，并在你的平台上扩大规模，那才是我所熟悉的微软和Windows。无论是Adobe员工创建他们的Creative Cloud，还是SAP构建他们的ERP[企业资源规划]业务，亦或者为Windows上的游戏玩家建立他们的社区，都是如此。\n在我看来，我们如何让Windows在未来变得更有活力？我感觉到了一个真正的机会，因为另外两个规模较大的生态系统，由于其内部一致的一系列原因，至少在我看来，已经将平台和聚合层与一套规则混为一谈。但没有理由需要这样的规则，它们可以被分解。毕竟，我们确实经营着应用商店。我们确实有商业往来。你可以使用它，也可以自己构建应用商店。对微软来说，这是一件非常实际的事情。\n我甚至不想发表这样的声明，即微软平台符合道德规则，而其他公司则不是。其他人选择微软平台有很多原因，包括源自设计选择，或者商业模式选择等。我想做出我们自己的一套设计和商业模式选择，这样创作者就能找到更多的选择。这就是竞争。\n问：你提到了其他两个规模较大的平台，显然是iOS和安卓。然后，你提到了他们因内部一致的原因而做出决定的模式。苹果已经非常清楚地表明了其内部一致的理由，即该应用商店覆盖了整个平台。\n最令人信服的理由是，这是苹果为免费分发软件而支付的代价。在手机的整个生命周期内，每个人都可以免费获得iOS更新，而且手机的使用时间也很长。\n为了获得所有这些创新、软件和安全更新，以及其他东西，苹果从应用商店营收中分得一杯羹，这就是苹果的商业模式。微软Windows也是如此，用户可以免费更新到Windows 11。如果你不想分得一杯羹，你怎么支付这些更新的费用呢？\n纳德拉：我们有不同的商业模式。在许多情况下，我们都有订阅。我们也有原始设备制造商（OEM）授权费。苹果显然通过出售设备获利。我认为，每个人最终都必须拥有一种允许他们为自己的所作所为买单的商业模式。我认为这只是一个问题，即你从哪里赚钱，通过其他人可以赚钱的规则是什么？它们必须是长期稳定的。\n在我们微软的案例中，我一直认为，至少平台的定义是：如果不能诞生比平台更大的东西，那么它就不是平台。网络就是在Windows上成长起来的。如果我们说“所有的商业都是通过我们进行中介的”，那么亚马逊就不可能存在。因此，我认为每家公司都必须选择并看看哪个聚合层、哪个平台层，以及什么规则对他们和他们的生态系统有效。但是，在微软，我们很清楚，我们确实想要解决同样的安全问题和可发现性问题，因为这是我们强调经营应用商店的原因之一。\n同时，不同的创作者可以在不同的层次使用应用商店。我们希望这种灵活性成为一种竞争差异化。\n问：你提到了规则。比方说我是微软的副总裁，今年的目标是将某项功能的注册人数增加30%。对我来说，最简单的方法就是去找Windows团队，并告诉他们：“每次你打开Windows，给人们展示下这项功能，以帮助推送。”这是每个操作系统都感受到的压力。\nWindows当然也感受到了这种推力和拉力，比如Edge团队希望Edge成为Windows的默认浏览器。你如何平衡这种内部压力和想要成为一个开放平台，以便让竞争对手能够在微软自己的产品上取得成功？\n纳德拉：这是两件不同的事情。首先，你策划了一系列彼此配合良好的体验，然后允许其他人提供可能是某种东西替代品的体验。问题是，你是通过自家应用商店或其他规定才允许这样做的，还是这件事可以独立于你而发生？以浏览器为例，它属于默认设置。但你不必只使用微软的浏览器，也可以下载谷歌或火狐等浏览器。从某种意义上说，这是一种让消费者拥有直接选择的能力。\n我们希望成为平台创建者的平台，而不仅仅是其他人的应用程序平台。这就是我们想要指出的细微差别，那就是：我希望我们在成为一个平台方面做得很好，这意味着平台需要做所有的事情。我们会有应用商店，有自己的默认浏览器，自己会设计某些东西。但如果其他人能够进入我们的平台，在我们的平台上创造大量价值，并将其用作基础设施（比如操作系统），那也完全没有问题。\n顺便说一句，这也是我们运行云计算业务的方式。这对我们来说没什么不同。我们在云中有从应用到基础架构的各个层，不同的应用开发商和公司以不同的方式使用它。\n问：有趣的是，你谈到了浏览器。微软打了一场著名的反垄断战，内容是将该浏览器与Windows捆绑销售，并将其设置为默认浏览器。现在感觉这个领域的规则更清晰了些，在Windows中有很多关于浏览器默认设置的改变。\n是否还有不太明确的地方？你们有内部规定吗？你有没有一种文化会说：“好吧。我们可以设置默认值，但Windows团队需要将其他平台和其他服务设置为默认值。”\n纳德拉：这是毫无疑问的。但是，首先，我们在90年代从反垄断案中学到的任何东西都意味着，你只需要成为一个开放的平台。有些东西是内置到操作系统中的。如果有些东西是独立于操作系统，那么其他东西完全可以替代，而不会损害系统的完整性。\n即使是通信（无论是Slack、Zoom，还是其他任何东西），它们在Windows上都可以是最好的。从某种意义上说，我们没有限制别人的软件不能在Windows上使用。我们确实有分销优势，但这并不意味着其他人没有自己的优势。对我来说，每当我访问谷歌网站时，他们都非常清楚自己的分销优势，即使是在Windows PC上也是如此。这是无法逃脱的，这没什么。\n问：你每天访问多少次谷歌网站？\n纳德拉：我想，在我的必应搜索中，YouTube可能是出现最多的一个。\n问：说到谷歌，你让Windows更接近安卓了。这已经持续了一段时间了。Windows 11最大的公告之一是安卓应用程序将可以直接在Windows上运行。这一决定的利弊是什么？\n纳德拉：有趣的是，Windows体系结构始终都有这样的功能。你可以在Windows中拥有多个账户。事实上，我记得最初来微软工作时，我是在宣传Windows NT上的POSIX接口工作。现在，我最喜欢的Windows功能之一是WSL。我爱死它了。新的终端，以及现在我们甚至在Windows上支持完整的Linux UI。Linux现在是Windows上的一流系统，而安卓只是另一个子系统。\n我们的决定依据是，让我们的用户可以使用更多应用程序的最佳方式是什么？我们如何为可能需要更多应用程序的13亿Windows用户增值？这是问题的一面。另一方面，通过将安卓应用推送给超过10亿的用户群，可以为开发安卓应用程序的人创造更多机会。我认为双方都从中受益，为此这是个双赢决定。现在，这将取决于什么是被采用，有哪些使用案例，他们想要使用什么应用程序，是Windows上的安卓还是PWAS、UWP，以及你有什么。我们将采取这种开放方式，我们欢迎所有的应用程序。\n问：你听到的最好反对理由是什么？\n纳德拉：我认为总会有这样的争论：“我们必须要有一致的应用程序模式吗？”\n因为如果你想一想创新，有没有统一的NUI或AI芯片？如何才能激活该应用程序的API，以便该应用程序能够利用它呢？当你有多个子系统和多个应用程序版本时，你能让你的平台系统级创新浮出水面，让所有的应用程序都凸显出来吗？\n在这样一个世界里，这将是个根本性的挑战，但我们觉得还是有办法应对的。我对此的看法之一是，你可以在未来，甚至今天，为一些新的AI API在Windows上启动安卓、PWA或UWP应用程序。在微软，我们为iOS、安卓以及Windows构建应用，这是我们的根本挑战之一。我们正在努力确保作为开发者，我们可以利用尽可能多的公共代码库，尽可能多的云计算服务。\n问：安卓应用程序能在安卓系统上运行，能在Chrome OS上运行，也将在Windows上运行。你认为它们会成为开发者最低需求的环境吗？这些开发者只想做好所有事情，而没有为原生应用开发带来机会。\n纳德拉：我认为，无论是网络还是安卓，它们都会让你更快地到达多个地方，然后你会根据用户告诉你的反馈在这些平台上进行优化，因为任何人都最不想要没有人使用或者没有人喜欢的应用。因此，归根结底，它必须是有竞争力的。\n问：我们已经介绍了很多ChromeOS上的安卓应用，它们的表现不是很好。是什么让这些变得更好？\n纳德拉：我最感兴趣的是，一旦应用程序开发者在Windows上推出安卓应用程序，他们会开始做些什么。然后他们会扩展它以利用些本地能力吗？仅仅是我们在系统层面所做的工作，以及它继承的所有东西，就能让这一切成为可能吗？比方说，我如何才能获得《纽约时报》或《华尔街日报》的应用程序，然后在PWA应用程序旁边看到它呢？加上所有的开窗工作，它工作得很漂亮。现在的问题是，用户的体验是什么？他们会用他们的点击告诉我们。\n问：你们在与亚马逊合作分发亚马逊应用。你在发布活动上说，欢迎其他安卓应用商店参与Windows的分发体系。亚马逊应用商店目前非常专注于亚马逊自己的Fire平板电脑和产品，其表现不算太好。\n它当然没有谷歌Play Store为安卓应用程序提供的销量。你认为情况会好转吗？你觉得现在够好了吗？谈谈你们之间的合作关系。\n纳德拉：我认为这对我们来说是个很好的起点，我希望更多的开发者甚至将亚马逊应用商店视为接触更多用户的一种方式。我希望这对他们和我们都有好处。就像我说的，如果这能行得通，我想连谷歌都会动心吧！如果他们觉得这是增加安卓应用程序使用率的一种方式，我们会欢迎任何其他的应用商店。当然，世界上有些地方已经有很多安卓应用商店的替代品，它们甚至比谷歌应用商店还要大。所以我们也会看看在这个动态中会发生什么。\n问：你们正在浏览亚马逊的应用程序条款，这可能不会妨碍这段合作关系。这是他们的应用商店。如果谷歌出现，他们也将拥有自己的商店和自己的经济。那么你认为那里的条款会有竞争力吗？他们会不会为争取开发商而战呢？\n纳德拉：这实际上是个令人着迷的问题。这就是问题所在，对吧？在Windows上，有很多应用商店，这个领域应该有竞争。这有点儿像有多个操作系统，在任何给定的操作系统上，如果有多个市场都充满活力和竞争，那会是什么样子？你已经在Windows的游戏中看到了这种影响，我希望现在我们能在所有应用类别上都看到它。\n问：你们将微软应用商店的佣金费率降到了15%。你认为开发者应该向微软支付这笔钱，而不是推出他们自己的支付系统？\n纳德拉：今天人们在应用商店里期待的所有事情都会让你感觉安心，因为有人会管理应用程序，查看应用程序的安全性，然后让你很容易地找到你想要的应用程序。当然，然后还要涉及到商务能力。所有这些都是有实际成本的。\n我们不认为应用商店是一项独立的业务，这是一种增加操作系统价值的实用程序。目前，应用商店需要成为操作系统的总要组成部分。我们完全同意这一点。只是这其中有个问题：应该有竞争和灵活性吗？即使在那里，我们也有自己的规则。其他平台可能会有其他规则，用户会做出选择。\n问：美国国会正在讨论关于数字市场的反垄断法案，其中有些甚至直接针对苹果和谷歌的生态系统，其他立法则瞄准了技术堆栈的其他部分。你认为微软会因为在Azure或Windows中的所作所为而受到抨击吗？\n纳德拉：议员们提出的任何规则都将适用于每个行业参与者。因此，微软将成为不可或缺的一部分。问题是哪些提案最终会成为法律。然后，我们看看微软与这些立法的关系。我认为，数字技术有这两种形式：第一种我把它叫做生产要素，它是对别人创作的一种投入。第二种为分配要素，现在没有更好的词来形容，它是关于供需匹配的。\n操作系统实际上是别人创作的输入，而应用商店更多的是一种分销能力。你把这两者结合起来，建立规则，然后围绕你周围的竞争生态系统发生的事情，产生它们自己的叠加效应。因此，我认为这就是人们从立法的角度来看待这个问题的地方。他们会问“哪套规则能让更广泛的经济中创造出最多的盈余？”这是一件好事。\n我认为竞争一直是帮助资本主义向前发展的最好动力，我们将和其他人一样受到同样规则的约束。\n问：你提到了生态系统，我想问你微软在更广泛生态系统中所扮演的角色。大多数人不会在微软硬件上体验Windows。Surface产品很棒，但大多数人在其他公司的笔记本电脑上使用其他公司的芯片来体验Windows。\n这个生态系统的某些部分做得很好，但有些部分落后了。我很好奇你如何看到了与英特尔合作的潜力和他们的路线图，以及你可能想要用定制的AI硬件和你讨论的其他功能做的所有事情。\n纳德拉：首先，对我们来说，与英特尔的合作相当关键，我们对帕特·盖尔辛格(Pat Gelsinger，英特尔新任首席执行官)和他的团队以及他们的创新路线图感到兴奋，我们肯定会与他们深度合作，我们与AMD和高通也会如此。\n举个例子：个人电脑始终代表着非常广阔的设计领域，无论是硅片创新、板级创新、ASIC，它们的组装方式，以及英伟达在GPU上做了什么等。这就是为什么我们制造了令人惊叹的游戏PC、笔记本电脑、台式机的原因。\n我想在接下来的10年里，当我们看到盖尔辛格谈论未来计划时，我会感到非常兴奋。什么样的创新水平才能让我们重新思考操作系统，什么才会有充满活力的竞争和创新？我看着英特尔、高通、AMB以及英伟达的创新，然后说：“我想做一件很棒的工作，把所有的创新通过Windows变成现实，然后把它呈现给开发者。”你带着你的UWP、PWA、安卓应用程序，用Windows来点亮硅片创新。这就是我看到的机会。我们的戴尔、惠普和联想等原始设备制造伙伴对此感到兴奋。\n问：微软目前只推出过一款安卓设备，即Surface Duo。你们还打算推出更多吗？\n纳德拉：我不认为Surface Duo是手机的替代品。尽管有时我梦见它是一部手机，但它毕竟不是手机。它确实有接打电话功能，但如果我们试图推出的手机，我们就不会构建它，我们想看看接下来会发生什么。\n我喜欢Surface Duo，因为它绝对是我的笔记本，就是我随身携带的Moleskine。我确实把它当手机用，但那是独一无二的。这不是最好的用例。但我的天哪，我真的喜欢在一块屏幕上阅读Kindle和做OneNote笔记吗？这是我的杀手级应用。我们构建它就是为了这个。我想在这方面不断创新。无论是HoloLens还是Surface 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