Don't Invest In Chinese Stocks, US Is "Better"?

I think it is really risky to invest in Chinese stocks in the current climate. There I said it!

When I mention “Chinese stocks”, I refer to stocks from both China and Hong Kong exchanges.

Both China and Hong Kong economies are in a doldrum to put it mildly.

This alone makes investment risky, when any economy is faltering due to many reasons.

If you have been keeping up with the news coming out from China, you will concur too.

(1) Property Market Crisis.

China property market is facing a major crisis.

Many developers (state backed and private) are roiling the nation’s dollar-bond market and adding to concerns about the health of China, the world’s second-largest economy.

This includes Country Garden (latest developer) seeking delay payment (for another 3 years) on a private onshore bond for the first time.

It has already suspended trading in its 11 onshore bonds: sending its shares plunging to a record low.

So, so much could happen in the next 3 years - what guarantee is there that Country Garden will not fold?

Other troubled property landlords:

  • Shui On Land became the market’s latest concern on 18 Jul 2023. Its notes plunged by record amounts of more than 10 cents on the dollar after the firm said it was seeking to identify bondholders, a step that sometimes foreshadows payment delays.

  • Sino-Ocean Group Holding (State-backed) halted trading in a local note that was maturing in early Aug 2023, flagging “significant” uncertainty about its bond repayment.

  • A key unit of Dalian Wanda warned creditors of a funding shortfall on a maturing bond. Creditors were told that it’s still raising the money, as well as weighing an alternative unspecified plan,

  • Evergrande reported combined losses of more than $81 billion over two years. The firm is seeking to convene meetings for offshore creditors to approve its credit overhaul plan.

Despite the Chinese government’s efforts to stimulate the property market by easing mortgage rates on first-home purchases; it failed to spark any demand when the economy is so “weak”.

The problem started in 2020 when the ruling party decided to limit the amount of debt developers could hold, out of the blue. That pushed Evergrande into a liquidity crisis as financing evaporated.

And they said, the rest is history.

(2) Consumer Price Index (July).

  • According to the data released by the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) on Wed, 9 Aug,

  • China’s July 2023 consumer price index (CPI) fell by -0.3% YoY.

  • This was lower than the median forecast of a 0.4% decline in a Reuters poll.

  • This marked the first time that the CPI had a negative growth since February 2021.

In theory, when the CPI declines, it implies that there's deflation, or a steady decrease in the prices of goods and services.

(3) Producer Price Index (July).

  • China’s producer price index (PPI) declined for a 10th consecutive month (see below).

  • It’s down -4.4% and more than forecast of -4.1%.

  • Lower producer prices likely mean consumers will pay less at the retail level.

(4) China hedge funds in crisis after losses as US investors retreat.

  • Foreign investors are losing interest in China.

  • Hedge funds that target the Chinese economy are bearing the brunt of the disinterest.

  • Number of active China-focused hedge funds has slipped for the first time since at least 2012.

  • Up until June 2023, only 5 new funds have been launched versus 18 funds liquidated; according to data from Preqin Ltd (see above table).

  • According to Eurekahedge Pte, China-focused hedge funds (stock pickers in particular) are facing an unprecedented 2nd consecutive year of losses,

  • In 2022, >67% of China-focused hedge funds lost money, 36% were down a fifth or more.

  • In first-half of 2023, 62% of China funds failed to make money, Preqin data showed..

  • The contraction marks a major shift for offshore China hedge funds, that accounted for almost 50% of new funds in Asia in as recent as 2021.

  • The MSCI China Index has dropped -43% since the end of 2020, versus a 19% gain for the US S&P 500 Index over the same period.

  • Latest news dating Tue, 15 Aug. Bridgewater - world’s biggest hedge fund has liquidated a third (30%) of its China stock holdings (see above).

  • Does the above set your alarm bells ringing?

  • According to data released by the State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE) on Fri, 4 Aug 2023 - Direct investment liabilities, a gauge of foreign direct investment in China, slumped to just $4.9 Billion in the April-June period of 2023.

  • This is down -87% YoY and was the smallest amount in any quarter in data back to 1998.

  • China’s appeal to foreign firms has taken reputational hit.

  • Factors contributing to the disinvestment included (a) Tensions with the US, (b) a dimming growth outlook and (c) fears of possible backsliding on economic reforms and (d) government’s high-handed manner in enforcing its zero-infection covid policy disregarding foreign investment is backfiring.

(5) Slippage Into Deflation.

Deflation is a decline in the prices of goods and services in an economy.

It will have negative consequences for China because it relies heavily on:

  • Exports.

  • Investments.

Undesirable effects of deflation for China :

(1) Reduced profits and wages.

  • As prices fall, so do the revenues and profits of businesses, especially those that produce tradable goods.

  • This can result in (i) lower wages, (ii) layoffs, and (iii) reduced spending by households and firms.

  • Lower incomes can also reduce tax revenues and increase public debt for the government.

(2) Increased real debt burden.

  • Deflation increases the real value of debt, making it harder for borrowers to repay their loans.

  • This can create financial distress and defaults for households, firms, and the government, and reduce the availability and affordability of credit.

A deflationary spiral can occur when falling prices lead to lower incomes, which lead to lower demand, which lead to further price declines.

My Point Of View:

  • With all the mentioned downsides, I really do not think now is the time to invest in Chinese stocks; contrary to what some other Tiger members have extolled.

  • Cannot predict what the future might hold for China; it’s 50% that China might be able to turnaround and remainder 50% that it might worsen.

  • Unless an investor has a lot of spare cash lying around and does not mind having his/her assets “frozen” even for short to medium term, by all means - despite this is not what an astute investor would adopt.

  • Do you think China economy will turn around by end December?

  • Do you think you are confident in China and will invest in Chinese stocks or funds?

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# 💰 Stocks to watch today?(20 Dec)

Disclaimer: Investing carries risk. This is not financial advice. The above content should not be regarded as an offer, recommendation, or solicitation on acquiring or disposing of any financial products, any associated discussions, comments, or posts by author or other users should not be considered as such either. It is solely for general information purpose only, which does not consider your own investment objectives, financial situations or needs. TTM assumes no responsibility or warranty for the accuracy and completeness of the information, investors should do their own research and may seek professional advice before investing.

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  • Jurong East
    ·2023-08-20
    TOP
    I cannot agree more. But another thot will be will the government let the economic continue this way?
    Is this a good time to go in and get some shares at discounted price ?
    Just sharing my thots.
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    • LeeSJ
      I have been monitoring those chinese bank and recently the slump is really attractive. Make the yield looks very tempted.
      2023-08-21
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    • snappyz
      it is worthy of trying.because nothing is impossible from probability's perspective. but never pool too much captial in this deep water
      2023-08-21
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    • fizzziReplying toJC888
      very helpful advice.
      2023-08-21
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  • FrankRebecca
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP

    whether or not you should invest in China is a decision that you should make after carefully considering your individual circumstances and risk tolerance.

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    • JC888Replying toMs Mac
      Tks for taking time to read my post. Glad you like it...
      2023-08-19
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    • Ms MacReplying toJC888
      JC888 AWESOME observation and looking at numbers charts, we can take into consideration what is or has been trending. I am really appreciate the background work in your findings. Thanks.
      2023-08-19
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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for kind advise.
      2023-08-19
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  • intheloop
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP
    It is worth listening to what has been shared in this post. Facts are undeniably true for it reflected the real happening in the market situation of China. Info is helpful for me as it triggers cautiousness in what to invest into China Stocks.
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    • fizzzi
      such decline in China's stock marker is gradually accepted by people
      2023-08-21
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    • JC888
      Hi tks for taking time to read my post. Glad you like it...
      2023-08-20
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  • OldYee
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP
    JC888, thanks for your post. I would suggest performing our own due diligent evaluation, considering our individual risk tolerance and circumstances before making decision. Anyway, some investors look at long term, some short term. For China situation, it maybe a relatively longer term to expect good return. My view to share. Thanks.
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    • JC888
      Hi tks for making time to read my post. Agree totally with your afterthoughts... Will be a long wait for China recovery....
      2023-08-19
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  • MorganHope
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP

    By carefully considering your individual circumstances and doing your research, you can increase your chances of success.

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    • JC888
      Tks for the encouragement s
      2023-08-28
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  • Unrealised gain
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP
    The valuation also matters.
    A risky Chinese stock with PE=5, PB=0.5 is sitll better than a US tech stock with PE=500.
    Some sectors in China such as telecom have been performing quite well throughout the year.
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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for sharing yr thots. Agree that all these western articles are bias to a certain extent when it comes to valuation. However to me if monies dun flow back into the 2 Chinese stk exchg, valuation becomes secondary... Law of supply n demand still matter more I feel...
      2023-08-20
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  • Ericdao
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP
    China mkt is more volatile and somewhat more unpredictable than US mkt. Only occasionally trade when I see good setup will I trade
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    • glowzi
      it is very normal and safe mentality
      2023-08-21
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    • JC888
      Tks for sharing yr tips... Good to knw and learn from...
      2023-08-20
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  • FrankRebecca
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP

    China is a large and growing economy with a lot of potential, but it also faces a number of challenges.

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    • JC888
      I feel that as long as US n China dun mend their working relationships, the situation won't improve...
      2023-08-20
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  • Toby_Chua
    ·2023-08-20
    TOP
    US big banks begin to scope up good value Chinese stocks be greedy when others are fearful
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    • jazzyco
      even it is dangeroud, it has still some little chance to make fortune in such climate.
      2023-08-21
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    • JC888
      Banks' pockets are deeper than individual. Like I said if your pockets are deep and you have lots of idle cash & risk appetite, why not ya?
      2023-08-20
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  • Ms Mac
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP
    My opinion is that China's economy can go either way in December.
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    • dimpy
      Go either way seems has dimmed chance
      2023-08-21
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    • JC888
      Between now n Dec still a big gap of uncertainty lor...
      2023-08-19
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  • BruceBryant
    ·2023-08-19
    TOP

    Us stocks are doing bad, Chinese even worse

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    • JC888
      Agree.... Totally
      2023-08-20
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  • NewPower
    ·2023-08-20
    TOP
    I said it many times before, mark my words: Chinese netizents always laugh at Japan for their Lost 30 years, irony is that China will experience their Lost years but it is at least Lost 50 years!!!
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    • gleezy
      i am thirsty for resilience of economic to fight against potential collapse
      2023-08-21
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    • twiddly
      property bubble is dangerous,even toxitic to general economic
      2023-08-21
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  • J0E
    ·2023-08-20
    TOP
    Great piece of analysis, thank you very much for the hardwork and sharing!
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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for reading my post. Glad you like it... Hee hee
      2023-08-20
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  • LeeSJ
    ·2023-08-20
    TOP
    When all mentioned downsides, it is exactly the time to look at it.
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    • LeeSJReplying toJC888
      Good luck.
      2023-08-21
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    • JC888
      Wish they will recover as I am sitting on "mountains" of paper losses. Political dynamics between US & China will determine fate of Chinese exchanges.  Dun have to take what I say, just sharing...
      2023-08-20
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  • CIK
    ·2023-08-19
    Great ariticle, would you like to share it?
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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for reading my post. Pls feel free to "Share" & "Re-post". Tks!
      Would you consider "Follow me" and get first hand read of my Daily new posts? Thanks!
      2023-08-19
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  • BenjiFuji
    ·2023-08-19
    Great article. Staying out till signs of a turnaround occur. [Great]
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    • BenjiFuji
      [Grin]
      2023-08-21
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    • JC888
      Hi tks for taking time to read my post.
      2023-08-20
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  • HorngWey
    ·2023-08-26

    Great ariticle, would you like to share it?

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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for reading my post. Pls feel free to "Share" & "Re-post". Tks!
      Would you consider "Follow me" and get first hand read of my Daily new posts? Thanks!
      2023-08-26
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  • raven_r1
    ·2023-08-25
    Great ariticle, would you like to share it?
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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for reading my post. Pls feel free to "Share" & "Re-post". Tks!
      Would you consider "Follow me" and get first hand read of my Daily new posts? Thanks!
      2023-08-28
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  • Nauzi08
    ·2023-08-21

    Great ariticle, would you like to share it?

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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for reading my post. Pls feel free to "Share" & "Re-post". Tks!
      Would you consider "Follow me" and get first hand read of my Daily new posts? Thanks!
      2023-08-21
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  • Machine23
    ·2023-08-20
    Great ariticle, would you like to share it?
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    • JC888
      Hi, tks for reading my post. Pls feel free to "Share" & "Re-post". Tks!
      Would you consider "Follow me" and get first hand read of my Daily new posts? Thanks!
      2023-08-20
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